Teachers fueling the "my degree is better than your degree" problem - page 3

I'm in a BSN program. I'm 32, with kids, and a husband who has been super supportive of me taking the longer approach to entering the nursing scene. I also hope to move on to a masters program in the... Read More

  1. Visit  GrnTea profile page
    0
    "Exposure" isn't the same as "a semester doing it." But I take your point otherwise.
  2. Visit  GrnTea profile page
    1
    Quote from nguyency77

    GrnTea:
    Someday soon I'm going to make a GrnTea appreciation thread, lol!

    Awwww, that is so sweet. Lots of people here do their best to help students-- Esme, Ruby Vee, HouTx, Kel, and so many more. We don't generally sugar coat things and people don't always like what they hear, but it's the truth born of long experience as nurses, teachers, managers, and preceptors, and we believe in making sure you have the information you need.

    (You can pick up your check at the end of the month. )
    Esme12 likes this.
  3. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    0
    Quote from Jujubees

    woah, how'd you get 12 years into your plan? is that including a lvn first? or a doctorate? just curious
    Yes, I went the ADN route, did not do well, LPN, worked, then BSN...it took me from 1999-2012 to get the BSN. If I was well prepared, from counseling, (I am the only nurse in the family, so no one was able to tell me the "hard knocks" of nursing...I learned them on my own) I would've went to school and got my BSN in the first place, stepped out of my comfort zone and just did it. But I was not prepared. But it was a great ride, and I am enjoying it as a new RN grad.
  4. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    0
    Quote from IndiCRNA
    Until recently the ADN-RN to BSN route had a huge advantage over the strait BSN route. Previous to about 2008 the only advantage of the strait BSN route was the whole "college experience". For young high school grads it really was the way to go IMO. However for adult students the ADN-RN to BSN was a really good option and provided many advantages not offered by the strait BSN route. In my opinion many grads of strait BSN programs were jelous of the advantages enjoyed by the ADN-RN to BSN route. Things have changed. With so many hospitals prefering to hire new grads with BSNs over ADNs the BSN provides advantages that the ADN-RN to BSN route can't offer.
    I find the huge expence of many BSN prgrams hard to justify considering that so many new grad RNs starting pay is around $20-$24 and hour. Pretty good pay for a two year program costing less than $10K, questionable for a program that takes 4 years and cost $60K plus.
    I did ADN RN in two years, as many people do in my state. Actualy only went to school 16 months, four, 4 month semesters for a total cost of around $6K. Then when I decided I wanted to go to CRNA school I did an RN to BSN program in a little less than a year. Don't let anyone blow smoke up your backside about new grads with a BSN being superior nurses to new grads with an ADN. It simply isn't true. I have a lot of experience teaching and precepting in my hospital's critical care nurse residency program. It is a very challenging 9 month program with high academic standards. Plenty of new grads wash out. We were unable to predict who would pass the program and go on to be competent critical care nurses based on the degree they brought to the program. We did notice that those who were a little older and had more life experience did better. Another thing we noticed is that so few of the new grad BSNs actually finish the 2 year contract they signed to get into the program vs 100% of ADN grads finishing the contract. In addition the BSN grads were a little more costly to train since they came to us without having been trained in many basic nursing skills. So while the ADN grads were learning about hemodynamics, or emergency procedures, or slicing up pig hearts, or observing a CABG operation, the BSN grads were down in same day surgery learning to place IVs, or in the ER placing NG tubes, or with lab learning to draw blood. Its hard to concentrate on learning critical thinking and priorities when you are concentrating on basic hands on skills.
    In the end though plenty with both degrees washed out and plenty with both degrees went on to be competent ICU nurses.
    I have to enlighten you, Indi. My school gave us the advantage of being taught basic skills in a sim lab, as well as on the floor, and combined the importance-the WHY for thinking critically...just FYI. And I have experienced ADN (was not successful) LPN, (successful, graduated) and BSN (successful, graduated) programs. I was able to do those skills, and made sure to be an advocate for myself to be exposed...sometimes people don't take advantage of the opportunities in clinical, thus, maybe not "cutting it" in a preceptor program. In the organization that I started with today, the process of getting them to acquire skills, is very receptive of having someone coming in cold, and building on Benner's novice to expert clinical model-again, it's up to the person with this opportunity to be active in acquiring their experience, regardless of ADN or RN.

    I have also precepted both in my own experience as a LPN and a RN, and had ADN and BSN nurses struggle to make the connections. I think it really comes down to the person, and how "active" you want to be in honing your clinical expertise, just my 2 cents.
  5. Visit  timmath99 profile page
    0
    To Grn Tee... or what ever...must be something in that stuff you are drinking.. I am a BSN graduate.... MS Nursing Admin graduate... was lucking enough to get PAID to go to nursing school both BSN and part of my masters... then did Post Master NP program...the hard way... working over full time and going to school full time and due to the craziness of doctorally prepared nursing faculty ended up with close to 80 hrs graduate work. 30 + years nursing experience... Med surg/ICU/ED/management.... and FNP-BC and at various times have had a ton of initials after my name ...now I run an oncology program.. so I too have been there done that and am fed up with the hijacking by the nursing profession's DNP's, educators, and researchers creating this debate over entry level education... those folks have to fill up the schools and set these artificial standards and create their course work and sell the books to keep their jobs...
    Interestingly enough during one of the professional development classes for NP ... the topic came up on "how women get along professionally"... only guy in the room of over 50 master's prepared women... even though I tried to hide .. the professor asked my my opinion... my response.. "you guys can't get along"... they all agreed ... then when I see a discussion like Grn Tea puts forth... I get royally ****** off... it hurts nursing.. is very polarizing...you do not see the medical providers doing this...

    First ...my DIPLOMA prepared RN sister... long before all this debate started... graduated over 40 yrs ago...recently did poster presentation at NCI of her research and long term med ICU nurse in a major university medical center... extremely smart and laughs at the poorly prepared BSN nurse... First example... let us all take out our licenses... and what ever state you are working .. they all look the same...
    Second... I can not count the number of nurses I have oriented or been preceptor to... the heart to be a nurse ... the drive to be compassionate... and to be a team player... and to do what is best for the patient .. no matter what degree your colleague next to you has when the patient is coding or needs the bed changed and butt wiped in the middle of a night shift... there are a ton of diploma nurses out there that I have more of these values and have more heart in their pinky finger nail than many of highly degree'd, tons of initials after their name nurses...
    Third.. had to laugh... bunch of the BSN new graduates that are going through a nursing residency program... and they are supposed to have a basic understanding of EKG's... "we did not get this in our clinical or classes"... as the lone AD program graduate said.."we had to know this and identify abnormal rhythm's and were tested on the ACLS algorithms in our clinical simulations...." A very high cost, well renowned 50K+ for BSN program that has "clinical" rotations at our hospital... I purposely have them share with me what "counts" as a clinical site and experience.....not even close to some of the local ADN programs... those nurses will run circle around BSN new grads...
    Fourth... yes we have several "Magnet" hospitals in our area and my oncology patients unfortunately end up there. Time and Time again the patient give the nursing staff my card... does any one call? no...do they try to find out about their cancer dx or work up or tx? No; do they verify the narcotics they are on? no do they arrange follow up? no.. .I have had patient go in withdrawal from their narcotics for pain control because no BSN prepared nurse bothered to verify their narc dosage with me... Magnet status is a marketing tool... so the local one will not take ADN application... good luck BSN... they recently fired a bunch of techs.. laid off all ancillary staff.. why? it is too expensive...duh!
    Finally, I love sharing with all the BSN students paying over 50K for education... my wife went to community college...way cheaper.. and has a license that looks just like mine... has a fantastic job... and is going to online accredited University of Texas, Arlington ... for $8500 total!...she actually has to take more classes than if she went to the BSN online program at local large state university program that I attended twice at the graduate level... they wanted 25K for that degree... the bottom line is this...with Obama care and ICD 10 coming... reimbursement is going to be dramatically decreased... and going to be expected to do more with less... so all those students doing doctorates for their NP's nice letters after your name but I can not afford to pay you more... and those loans you took out.. interest now starts accruing when you take out loan not when you graduate.. and it is at 6.85%... have fun paying that off...
    So green tea... we will need over 750K nurses in next few years... not even close to that number coming out of all BSN programs in US combined...mmm where will they come from.. ADN programs... so stop the chatter about entry level degrees... look at the heart and motivation to be a nurse provide caring and compassion... stop the madness and bickering... they passed boards just like you... and have demonstrated they have the knowledge to be a nurse... be supportive vs elitist...
  6. Visit  zoe92 profile page
    0
    Quote from timmath99
    To Grn Tee... or what ever...must be something in that stuff you are drinking.. I am a BSN graduate.... MS Nursing Admin graduate... was lucking enough to get PAID to go to nursing school both BSN and part of my masters... then did Post Master NP program...the hard way... working over full time and going to school full time and due to the craziness of doctorally prepared nursing faculty ended up with close to 80 hrs graduate work. 30 + years nursing experience... Med surg/ICU/ED/management.... and FNP-BC and at various times have had a ton of initials after my name ...now I run an oncology program.. so I too have been there done that and am fed up with the hijacking by the nursing profession's DNP's, educators, and researchers creating this debate over entry level education... those folks have to fill up the schools and set these artificial standards and create their course work and sell the books to keep their jobs... Interestingly enough during one of the professional development classes for NP ... the topic came up on "how women get along professionally"... only guy in the room of over 50 master's prepared women... even though I tried to hide .. the professor asked my my opinion... my response.. "you guys can't get along"... they all agreed ... then when I see a discussion like Grn Tea puts forth... I get royally ****** off... it hurts nursing.. is very polarizing...you do not see the medical providers doing this... First ...my DIPLOMA prepared RN sister... long before all this debate started... graduated over 40 yrs ago...recently did poster presentation at NCI of her research and long term med ICU nurse in a major university medical center... extremely smart and laughs at the poorly prepared BSN nurse... First example... let us all take out our licenses... and what ever state you are working .. they all look the same...Second... I can not count the number of nurses I have oriented or been preceptor to... the heart to be a nurse ... the drive to be compassionate... and to be a team player... and to do what is best for the patient .. no matter what degree your colleague next to you has when the patient is coding or needs the bed changed and butt wiped in the middle of a night shift... there are a ton of diploma nurses out there that I have more of these values and have more heart in their pinky finger nail than many of highly degree'd, tons of initials after their name nurses... Third.. had to laugh... bunch of the BSN new graduates that are going through a nursing residency program... and they are supposed to have a basic understanding of EKG's... "we did not get this in our clinical or classes"... as the lone AD program graduate said.."we had to know this and identify abnormal rhythm's and were tested on the ACLS algorithms in our clinical simulations...." A very high cost, well renowned 50K+ for BSN program that has "clinical" rotations at our hospital... I purposely have them share with me what "counts" as a clinical site and experience.....not even close to some of the local ADN programs... those nurses will run circle around BSN new grads... Fourth... yes we have several "Magnet" hospitals in our area and my oncology patients unfortunately end up there. Time and Time again the patient give the nursing staff my card... does any one call? no...do they try to find out about their cancer dx or work up or tx? No; do they verify the narcotics they are on? no do they arrange follow up? no.. .I have had patient go in withdrawal from their narcotics for pain control because no BSN prepared nurse bothered to verify their narc dosage with me... Magnet status is a marketing tool... so the local one will not take ADN application... good luck BSN... they recently fired a bunch of techs.. laid off all ancillary staff.. why? it is too expensive...duh!Finally, I love sharing with all the BSN students paying over 50K for education... my wife went to community college...way cheaper.. and has a license that looks just like mine... has a fantastic job... and is going to online accredited University of Texas, Arlington ... for $8500 total!...she actually has to take more classes than if she went to the BSN online program at local large state university program that I attended twice at the graduate level... they wanted 25K for that degree... the bottom line is this...with Obama care and ICD 10 coming... reimbursement is going to be dramatically decreased... and going to be expected to do more with less... so all those students doing doctorates for their NP's nice letters after your name but I can not afford to pay you more... and those loans you took out.. interest now starts accruing when you take out loan not when you graduate.. and it is at 6.85%... have fun paying that off... So green tea... we will need over 750K nurses in next few years... not even close to that number coming out of all BSN programs in US combined...mmm where will they come from.. ADN programs... so stop the chatter about entry level degrees... look at the heart and motivation to be a nurse provide caring and compassion... stop the madness and bickering... they passed boards just like you... and have demonstrated they have the knowledge to be a nurse... be supportive vs elitist...
    You want to GrnTea to be supportive yet you just put down those studying in BSN programs or who have graduated with BSN & higher degrees. Just because someone has a BSN doesn't mean they will be a better nurse but that also goes vice versa.. just because someone has an ADN doesn't mean they are a better nurse either. It is purely based on the individual. As you said, "look at the heart and motivation to be a nurse provide caring and compassion... stop the madness and bickering..." You should listen to your own advice before putting down a whole category of nurses. Also, spending 50K on a BSN is crazy. The BSN programs by me are not nearly that high so thank you, but I will not be in debt when I graduate.
  7. Visit  ixchel profile page
    3
    Well, then. Welcome to allnurses, Tim. Quite a first post, there. And you've managed to illustrate your own point quite effectively.
    GrnTea, Luckyyou, and zoe92 like this.
  8. Visit  netglow profile page
    0
    Awww my peeps!

    Always follow the money.

    Now, nurses who have been around for decades were able to begin their careers in a totally different time and space for nurses. Some have exited stage left for a much less dangerous lifestyle. Don't you think they'd guard the availability of that lifestyle? Your school is doing what it can to keep you all from switching your major. True this. This is a big reality for colleges as people wise up to the problem of nursing. The problem is getting press, thank God! And people are acting on this information. This means a fear of lower enrollment in nursing colleges and then what follows is staff lay-offs. They know how impressionable many kids are, even older nursing students who maybe never had a career (Moms). OP, you are right to wonder, what you feel is going on is going on.

    Always look at the motivation. It's always gonna be money.

    Here is the truth. Once you've been working for years and years, one tends to stop caring. You just want to keep your job till you retire. Also if you find that a little manipulation keeps bringing in the money honey, many will happily do just that! Unfortunately, in healthcare due to the heaviness of what we do, it is even easier not to care what path you lead people down. Hey after all it's your money, and not theirs, and you will soon graduate and you will disappear into the ether.
  9. Visit  metal_m0nk profile page
    0
    I've heard much from both sides in this debate and in a way, I have a dual perspective having earned a bachelors degree in my 20's before making a career change to nursing in my 30's with an associates degree. When I compare what I hear to what I have experienced, I feel comfortable saying that the majority of the pros and cons on either side are completely speculative and often times emphasized simply because the person speculating is taking an opportunity to defend his or her own life decisions.

    In reality, it depends. Whether someone is making the smartest decision when choosing BSN or ADN depends almost entirely on individual circumstances.

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