Ok this may be a rant but.... - page 3

Why does it seem that most people believe that ADN programs are not as good as BSN programs?! Do we not all take NCLEX? Do we not all have the same goals...to be good caring nurses? Why is there... Read More

  1. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    1
    Quote from LCinTraining
    That is not what I meant, but thanks for asking me to clarify. Let me try to re-word it. There is world wise from life experience like you said, but I'm referencing the larger vocabulary that comes from the extra gen eds and the critical thinking that comes from it. Perhaps world wise wasn't the right word. I find those that have at least a bachelor's are more ready to accept view points that are not their own, than those without any higher education or an associates. I'm doing this as a 36 year old that's lived abroad. I'd say I come at it with world experience as well, however, I also know my bachelor's was undeniably essential for me learning to relate to other ideas. Obviously, I am generalizing, but I am a strong advocate of the mantra "education is never a bad thing".
    This debate will contine Ad infinitum while there is a two tiered entry levels.

    I have found, however, that those with the BSN are not more ready to accept view point not their own.....for if they did, this discussion would cease to exist.
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
  2. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    1
    Quote from anoetos
    yes, this is a very old, very tired debate and it seems like it is always being brought up by adns. i have never heard or seen a bsn lord it over an adn the way we might be led to believe from the way so many go on and on about it.
    i believe she was talking about the broader institutional "they" rather than the colleague "they". as for the supposed inferiority complex you identified due to you hearing adns complain more often well. . yeah, i guess you'd expect people on the receiving end of criticism to have their issues show up in forums like this. i don't see too many bsn students going out of their way to post about how wonderful it is that the institute of medicine believes your sisters and brothers are just a shade above incompetent.
    well, no. an adn prepares the graduate for general, bedside nursing. a bsn prepares the graduate for a much larger scope of practice, including management, public health, and research.
    at the risk of sounding like i'm harping (carping?), those things are not scope of practice. some students view those courses as either superfluous or available outside of the bsn structure.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Aug 10, '12 : Reason: the usual
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
  3. Visit  OB-nurse2013 profile page
    0
    Quote from Esme12
    This debate will contine Ad infinitum while there is a two tiered entry levels.

    I have found, however, that those with the BSN are not more ready to accept view point not their own.....for if they did, this discussion would cease to exist.
    If that is true then why, oh why, is this discussion almost always brought up by an adn student or nurse? My school, professors, or classmates never sit around talking about how we are in a BSN program blah blah blahh..never..I can't even think of a time in the oast 2 years that its been brought up..because of this I find your argument ahrd to believe although I acknowledge I am a tiny fraction of the big picture.
  4. Visit  Anoetos profile page
    0
    Quote from Esme12

    This debate will contine Ad infinitum while there is a two tiered entry levels.

    I have found, however, that those with the BSN are not more ready to accept view point not their own.....for if they did, this discussion would cease to exist.
    Perception is a funny thing. Mine is quite the opposite.

    Example: this very thread was started from the ADN perspective. It asked why BSNs don't think ADNs are as good as them, our answer thus far has been: no one actually thinks that.
  5. Visit  Anoetos profile page
    2
    Quote from nursel56

    I believe she was talking about the broader institutional "they" rather than the colleague "they". As for the supposed inferiority complex you identified due to you hearing ADNs complain more often well. . yeah, I guess you'd expect people on the receiving end of criticism to have their issues show up in forums like this. I don't see too many BSN students going out of their way to post about how wonderful it is that the Institute of Medicine believes your sisters and brothers are just a shade above incompetent.

    At the risk of sounding like I'm harping (carping?), those things are not scope of practice. Some students view those courses as either superfluous or available outside of the BSN structure.
    I think you saw my post in the other thread.

    If the idea is that a nurse is someone who assesses patients, communicates with doctors and administers medications from the bedside (along with all the other necessary and wonderful things bedside nurses do), then yes, you're right, these classes are superfluous.

    But if the idea is that a nurse is someone involved in the care of the whole person, family, population and community, including their responses to treatment, stress, their environment and all the many things that effect their health and health behaviors in every place where they find themselves, then a broader classroom preparation becomes necessary.

    Where this gets muddy is when assumptions get made, that, for example a two year degree nurse can't do all these things, or, on the other hand, that BSN prepared nurses are clinically inadequate. Neither is true. Clearly, ADNs get a grounding in holistic and collaborative care, and clearly BSNs get the same amount of clinical preparation as ADNs.

    Frankly, I am for a broadening of the profession. I would like every nurse to be as well prepared as he or she can possibly be. If doctors go to school as long as they do, why should the people carrying out their orders not be at the very least baccalaureates?

    I am for independent nursing as well, for the practice of nursing as a separate discipline, a profession where it's practitioners are prepared as highly as they can be, who can work autonomously.

    I would encourage everyone to go and get their bachelors if they have not, and to go on to graduate degrees if they have and are so inclined. It only improves the profession itself and it's perception. It means better opportunities for a greater number of people. It means elevating the profession.

    I am really sorry if this sounds snooty. It isn't my intention.

    Is a bachelors degree better than an associates degree? Does the question even need to be asked? Of course it is.

    Is a BSN prepared nurse a better nurse than an ADN prepared nurse? Does the question even need to be asked? Of course not.

    But it remains that the former is better prepared upon graduation to embrace nursing as a complete profession in every environment.

    You're welcome to disagree.
    OB-nurse2013 and zoe92 like this.
  6. Visit  Kasandra profile page
    0
    After reading everyone's posts, everyone has me thinking:

    Why don't all nurses accept eachother for who they are? A BSN RN can help ASNs with how all that extra theory applies at the bedside while ASN prepared nurses can help others with their experience.

    There is nothing wrong with nurses wanting to better the profession as a whole by advancing one's education. Any knowledge that adds to one's critical thinking skills at the bedside to help others is worth it. I am a BSN RN who is confident in both my theory and critical thinking skills. I am grateful for my education.
  7. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    0
    Quote from Anoetos
    I think you saw my post in the other thread.
    I didn't. Which thread are you talking about?

    But if the idea is that a nurse is someone involved in the care of the whole person, family, population and community, including their responses to treatment, stress, their environment and all the many things that effect their health and health behaviors in every place where they find themselves, then a broader classroom preparation becomes necessary.
    That sounds very familiar, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that when a student in an ADN program gets the full complement of NANDA immersion, he or she can go toe to toe with a BSN nurse on holistic, wholeistic, and carative any ole' day.

    I'm actually one who thinks the clinical hours debate is pretty pointless, as is trying to broadly define individual trait differences such as aplomb, savvy, worldliness, curiosity, task-oriented etc. Those are more associated with individuals than school curriculum. Any such major differences in clinical hours usually work themselves out after doing the job for a while.

    My issue has never been with the concept of higher education. I'm a huge proponent of lifelong learning. I just dislike the tactics used by the BSN-only advocates, because many times they are just flat out dishonest.

    I would also tell people to go for the BSN if they had the choice, because in this job climate you need to do everything in your power to make yourself more marketable. Even if the differences were only in perception, those perceptions can impact your life just as much as reality.

    Your wish to see more nurses with master's, etc is coming true slowly, but the fact is that good old-fashioned bedside nursing still operates within the framework of medicine, as well it should considering the comparative lengths of education. Do you think maybe MDs somewhere are decrying all the FNPs being "cranked out" and asking if a nurse wants to be a doctor why doesn't he or she just go to medical school? It's possible.

    And no, you don't appear snooty at all.
  8. Visit  WannaBNursey profile page
    0
    Quote from Anoetos
    Well, no. An ADN prepares the graduate for general, bedside nursing. A BSN prepares the graduate for a much larger scope of practice, including management, public health, and research.

    This is not to say that ADNs cannot do these things, it just means that they will have to get to the level of the BSN graduate while on the job rather than having learned the material in the classroom, in which case, why not just go back to school?
    You might feel that way, but an employer hiring a new grad at a non-magnet hospital doesn't. It's the employer's opinion that matters.

    It also depends on where you work, most BSN grads aren't going right into management. I've seen both LPN's and ADN's in management and public health (I've never met or heard of anybody who did nursing research) but I'm just a CNA and I know most about LTC and some acute settings.

    I'm not going to insult the Bachelor's trained nurses. I plan on going RN-BSN after I finish my RN program, but I also don't want to work as a bedside nurse for the rest of my life. If I planned on staying a bedside nurse forever and ever I don't think I would bother doing the RN-BSN.
  9. Visit  SleeepyRN profile page
    0
    You are obviously unwilling to "accept viewpoints that are not your own". I see how well your education prepared you.
  10. Visit  SleeepyRN profile page
    1
    Quote from Anoetos
    Well, no. An ADN prepares the graduate for general, bedside nursing. A BSN prepares the graduate for a much larger scope of practice, including management, public health, and research. This is not to say that ADNs cannot do these things, it just means that they will have to get to the level of the BSN graduate while on the job rather than having learned the material in the classroom, in which case, why not just go back to school?
    All ADN programs are different. My ADN program included Professional Issues in Nursing both years, in which we learned leadership and management. Our last clinical was heavily focused on leadership and management where we each were "charge nurse". We assigned patients, delegated and acted as the role of our clinical instructor. Throughout our entire program, we learned research and wrote numerous research papers. We did numerous case studies in management and worked on resumes and portfolios. I am starting my ADN to BSN this coming Spring semester at NIU, and I have read all the course descriptions. All topics of which we already completed in our ADN program.
    soxgirl2008 likes this.
  11. Visit  zoe92 profile page
    0
    Either way, the BSN is higher nursing education. It in NO WAY makes someone a better nurse. They just spent the extra time/money receiving the bachelor's degree rather than associate's. I would probably go for the ADN rather than BSN, but my parents offered to pay for my BSN (I am only 19 and a traditional student), and where I lived it is easier to find a job with the BSN. I will never look down on someone who has an ADN and does not plan on obtaining any more nursing degrees.
  12. Visit  SleeepyRN profile page
    0
    Quote from zoe92
    Either way, the BSN is higher nursing education. It in NO WAY makes someone a better nurse. They just spent the extra time/money receiving the bachelor's degree rather than associate's. I would probably go for the ADN rather than BSN, but my parents offered to pay for my BSN (I am only 19 and a traditional student), and where I lived it is easier to find a job with the BSN. I will never look down on someone who has an ADN and does not plan on obtaining any more nursing degrees.
    It is NOT higher nursing education. It is higher education overall because of the Gen ed and interdisciplinary study requirements, but I repeat it is NOT higher nursing education. I have used the same leadership/management.... texts as some universities and had tons of research papers due throughout both years. This topic urks me to no end. I can't wait til I'm done with my bsn classes (in which I've already learned this stuff in my adn program) just so I don't have to have people look down on me anymore for only having an adn. Even before nursing school, before my prereqs, I had 94 credit hours from a jc and NIU. I have more education than most graduating BSNs and I don't even have my BSN yet. I'm just SICK of the snooty ones who think they are better because they went to a four year school.
  13. Visit  zoe92 profile page
    0
    I hope you weren't assuming that I am one of the snooty ones. And when I say higher nursing education, I meant that you have a higher nursing degree with a BSN... which is the truth. It doesn't mean you bring more to the nursing profession.

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