HIPAA violation or not..?

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There is a huge ordeal in my clinical group. I have managed to stay out of it (thankfully I wasn't there when it happened and haven't been forced into getting involved), but was wondering what you guys thought about this.

The week before last in clinical, one of the students went to the nurses desk, called a friend, and told them that their step-mother was in the hospital with pneumonia and it looked pretty bad. The student did this in front of 2 students, a nurse (or more?), a doctor, and the unit secretary.

She was turned in for violating HIPAA and was told by the hospital that she was not welcome back. Our clinical instructor told her to go home. She was later notified by the department that she had been dropped from the program.

She appealed, of course, and continued to attend class.

Her clinical review was last Thursday and this morning she was in class for our test... so I guess she is still in..

what are your thoughts on this?

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
I agree,I am amazed at the condemnation and judgement that is going on here, I hope not one of you will ever make a mistake in your nursing career. I come from Europe and when I first came to the US , I was perplexed to see how quickly everyone get sewed for everything around here. But I see that even amongst themselves in a profession there is just no forgiveness . Did she make a mistake? Yes, do we know the whole story? NO! We should not jump to conclusion and even if I made that mistake, I sure hope that I would be able , especially as a student get a sec. chance. Look around this site, what about med errors, aren't those way more dangerous, no one cried there: fire her, fire her. HOpe you guys never have a brain fart or something like that.

I commented based on what the OP said, knowing that the "whole" story isn't there.

Speaking of judgments, the quoted post contains its fair share.

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what are your thoughts on this?

OP asked two questions:

HIPAA violation or not?

what are your thoughts on this?

so I think all the comments so far have been answering those questions...

some people think it is no big deal. Some people think it is terrible.

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Specializes in Palliative Care, NICU/NNP.

Thank you for your very civilized response and the reminder that HIPPA really pertains to electronic transmissions and to make information available between providers.

I've never experienced such a lynch mob mentality as on this post!

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HIPAA is WAY more than electronic transmissions. It sets rules and limits to who has access to your information and protects the patients privacy and civil rights amongst other things.

Here is a link that will answer any questions and also has the text. We studied it extensively in Law & Ethics for the Medical Professional class.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/

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Okay I don't have a reaction to the story, but I have a question. Is HIPAA a law that prevents a nurse or doctor or aide or whoever from communicating ANY of a patient's medical information to ANYONE? If I'm correct, then what about when people go to the hospital to visit a patient, and the doctor or nurse informs them of their condition? Is that a violation? How is that different? Surely every patient doesn't have a list of people who they can release medical information to before they go in, right? Sorry, like I said, I don't even know what it is so I'm just trying to clear it up. I'm a freshman nursing major so I haven't done any clinicals yet, and won't until junior year! Thanks :)

i tell no one unless they are on the list and have been accosted by some really angry sons daughters grand kids etc- i check and if they are NOT on the list then i explain to them they have to get permission from the person or POA - i need to hear from the person or POA before adding them to the list. also - if they call and say did they admit a person named so and so i will tell them i can not answer yes or no they wil have to contact the family to see where they are - if they specifically ask for so and so then you know they know they are there - then we go on to checking if they are on the list.

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HIPPA covers so many aspects in many details, it's tough to say. Working in a MI home, we have certain aspects during family careplans we do not go over, because of the embarassing nature of the goal(be free of s/s of STDs for next 3 months, etc.)

Regardless, I find it appalling that the student called her friend to divluge privledged information. Maybe the dad was planning to tell them, maybe they didn't want anyone to know, maybe they'd had a falling out, etc....

She should be kicked out, regardless. Most pre-clinical orientations state a HIPPA part to them. Ours says we are not allowed to obtain any identifying info except for resident initials....and the rights of the patients come first. Geez....some folks like to think their being helpful. If you have to share, why not wait until you're off the floor? I hope they get rid of her, period. Good lesson to learn.

hippa applies even off the floor - we can not go out and talk about it outside the workplace either. one question for the OP - did the step mom while chatting maybe say something like i should call my stepdaughter but i dont know what to tell her so she offered to call or did the step mom outright ask her to do so- if so this could be why she is back in the program.

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Actually, I'm going to answer part of my own question. I got just my School of Nursing Undergraduate Handbook today and I was browsing through it and I found a paragraph on HIPAA. We are required to read it and sign it, and although I have not taken any nursing classes yet, just pre-reqs, I'm sure I will learn much much more about it, like in Nursing 101, which I take next semester.

I still have one question though.. I don't understand how if you go to a hospital, and there are visitors there, doctors and nurses are allowed to go up to them and explain the patient's status and health problems. Wouldn't that be a violation? Thanks!

yes it is a violation iof that person is not on the contact list - i would think that the majority of docs and nurses would know if they are on the lsit and if they dont find out and get permission or it is a violation.

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Actually, I'm going to answer part of my own question. I got just my School of Nursing Undergraduate Handbook today and I was browsing through it and I found a paragraph on HIPAA. We are required to read it and sign it, and although I have not taken any nursing classes yet, just pre-reqs, I'm sure I will learn much much more about it, like in Nursing 101, which I take next semester.

I still have one question though.. I don't understand how if you go to a hospital, and there are visitors there, doctors and nurses are allowed to go up to them and explain the patient's status and health problems. Wouldn't that be a violation? Thanks!

as for the doc visits getting anything about hippa youd think folks would know but they do not and get very angry when they call and are told i can tell them nothing. especilly hard when there is a POA as you have to find and ask them vs the resident being right there to ask if its ok. i recently had a son call and got so mad he turned me into my supervisors however i was not reprimanded as i was not rude and even tyold the man what he needed to do to get any info from me that i told him i would be very happy to share when he gets that permission and understood why he was angry but my hands were tied. they tried 3 times and finally the wife called back and apologized for his bad attitude and blaming me - ( call the POA and get on the contact list. ) i dont blame him for being angry - but thats the rules so its gotta be. when i do admissions i make sure i ask is there anyone you want to have the info - and suggest family friends etc that they are willing to have the word given to in the event someon eshoudl call to check and they are asleep or unavailable....... saves a lot of hassel as many folks are NOT aware of the rules and are surprised by it...............

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Thank you for making that more clear for me! I'm sure I'll get it in much more detail before I do clinicals and all, but I was just curious.

So, let's say Jane is in a car accident. Jane's husband, Joe, goes to the hospital. The doctor would be allowed to give Joe Jane's information, right? Is it because they are married and Joe can legally speak for Jane when she is unable to speak for herself? What about girlfriends/boyfriends? Or sisters/brothers parents/children or other family members? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I'm just trying to get a clear perspective. Thanks so much to all who answer my many questions :)

only if the person is unconscious - if the person is not conscious thus incapasatated - then the next of kin get info and a power of attorney for health care and a living will is set up - i encourage all my with it residents to make sure they have one set up as it makes the decision they would want - not what the POA wants. for instance - if i am incapacitated my living will and pwer of health care is set there as my father - my husband has no access to my medical records ( for no reason i need to defend or tell anyone - just the way it needs to be for me) except for what my father decides to tell him ..

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I may be thrown off this forum but in all honesty, some of your replies sound like she killed someone. Every place I've worked there are HIPPA violations going on all over the place involving staff talking about patients in non-confidential terms. There are far worse things being done every day.

She made a mistake. She probably thought more about informing her friends for their sake and HIPPA was secondary. She can review HIPPA and get on with her career. If it keeps happening then she should be removed.

Can you honestly say that if your best friend's mother was brought in to the hospital you wouldn't call your friend?

has happened and yes - i would not tell - killed me for sure but thankfully i saw her 2 days later as the family had let her know.

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if they call and say did they admit a person named so and so i will tell them i can not answer yes or no they wil have to contact the family to see where they are - if they specifically ask for so and so then you know they know they are there - then we go on to checking if they are on the list.

I am only a student, but the way I understood it, unless a patient is labeled as confidential, directory information could be shared. That is if they are asking about John Doe you can give them the room number and phone number to anyone, just no personal information. The way they ask the question "Is John Doe there?" or "May I speak to John Doe" just seems like a different way of asking the same question. If they are asking if someone had been admitted they just may be verifying that they are correct info (mistakes do get made when passing along info). Am I misunderstanding something?

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I am only a student, but the way I understood it, unless a patient is labeled as confidential, directory information could be shared. That is if they are asking about John Doe you can give them the room number and phone number to anyone, just no personal information. The way they ask the question "Is John Doe there?" or "May I speak to John Doe" just seems like a different way of asking the same question. If they are asking if someone had been admitted they just may be verifying that they are correct info (mistakes do get made when passing along info). Am I misunderstanding something?

yes - if they specifically ask to speak to so and so who is there you KNOW they know that person is there so you can send the call on however i have ofetn received calls like " i heard so and so went somewhere are they there" or something to that effect where you KNOW by their tone and question they do NOT know if that person is there. or a visitor asks if there is a person named such and such there cause they heard at church they got sick..... yada yada......you will know by tone and question if they know they are there - i have seen a person get in trouble for giving info out to someone like this because the family said if they had wanted that person to know where that person was they would have told them. ( it was very sad too because the person who did not know was not just anybody but a grandson! a grandson who was shut off from his family in a really dysfunctional situation ) sooo in my opinion, if it doesnt sound like they are sure about knowing if they are there , better to not give that info out - never know what or why that person doesnt know-

i wold guess if you know that person isn't sure about the person being there and you know the resident or patient is there you could tell the person on the phone you aren't sure but would be happy to take thier name and number and if you find out the person thier looking for is there you'd call back - thus giving you a chance to tell the patient and let them call the person or not of they chose to not . personally if it sounds like they arent sure where that person is ( even if i know they are my patient) i tell them to please try to contact the family and get the info.

honestly i never used to care - id say yes or no as well if i knew someone was there or not, even if i knew they were just searching for that person. but after that situaton of my friends i decided nope never again will i - never know when its gonna be just a nosey neighbor looking for gossip ( ohhh so and so is at such and such hospital i know casue i called them and they said he was there - going on to maybe even set up big rumours in regards to the hospital stay - ive thought often, since i saw my friend get laid into for this, of scenarios that could happen. )

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