For students that are undecided between RN/PA - page 2

I wanted to let anyone that is considering PA vs NP or RN know that I have experienced a semester of nursing classes, and found that the curicculum did not match my expectations nor seem appropriate... Read More

  1. by   DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE
    NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific.
    Where do you get your information??? I would like to see documentation of such. Of course a NP has more nursing they are hand on Advanced Nursing Care. A NP can stand on thier own licenses where as a PA can not. They are cosigned by a Dr. Where NPs' are not. Yes there are differences in the ways inwhich the instructions are exchanged but the NP has more training by multiple years than a PA even with a MA. The course inwhich I told you about that is out of the University of North Dakota is based on 16 weeks of intense classroom and the rest of the time in clinicals. If you think that the NP program is anything like that think again.

    Since I thought the fundamentals of nursing class was so different from what I had envisioned to be important and relevant to patient care, I imagine I would be dysfunctional in relating it to the rest of the course. I cannot validate the use of psychosocial relevance to everything. I just don't think that way. If the rest of the course has much in the way of science, it doesn't give it away in the course descriptions.......
    How clear were your thoughts and your visions when you entered school? If the basics of Nursing is something you find unimportant than you have come to the realization that nursing is not for you. If you can not validate the psychosocials to everything you do then why is it that you feel Medicine in any shape and form is your nitch in life? If you feel Nursing isnt for you then why would you find it necessary to discourage others , that may or maynot wish this for themselves? If you do feel that you belong into another aspect of the medical agenda then explore your options and go for them.
    For ever action there is a reaction
    Basic chemistry Basic Life.
    Just my thoughts
    Zoe
  2. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Zoe,
    I'm not trying to discourage anybody from nursing. I'm trying to encourage those people that are not sure.
    A few quickies:
    NPs must get signed-off by an MD. They do not perform independently of the physician.

    I know of no RN programs that require organic chem or calculus. I do know of a BSN program that requires a semester of organic chem though. I however do not know of any PA programs that do not require these as minnimum standards.

    I wonder if the PA program you are referring to is even accredited. It has been pointed out that nursing and medicine are not the same. Why would you be allowed to clep into a program of medicine?



    the NP has more training by multiple years than a PA even with a MA
    Yes, but not in the medical model. The two are philisophicaly opposed. Even though a nursing degree is used as a prerequisite there is no medical model from which to draw from.

    Therefore..........invalid.
  3. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    I mean invalid to medical diagnosis and treatment. Certainly not invalid as a profession.

    Is that what you thought I was saying?
  4. by   DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE
    http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/pa/
    that is a ma pac program for rn.
    the explanations of a pa
    http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/pa/

    the role of a nurse practitioner- bonnie huss, arnp
    the role of a nurse practitioner- bonnie huss, arnp



    bonnie huss, arnp
    what is a nurse practitioner?
    a nurse practitioner is a registered nurse with additional specialized training (often at a graduate level) in diagnosing and treating illnesses and providing health care maintenance. the nurse practitioner provides some care previously offered only by physicians. education for nurse practitioners includes advanced nursing and selected medical studies as well as intensive clinical experience specific to the nurse practitioners area of practice. the nurse practitioner could specialize in any of the following areas of nursing such as: neonatal, pediatrics, women's health, family practice, geriatrics, and acute care. there are approximately 50,000 nurse practitioner in the united states today.
    where do nurse practitioners work?
    nurse practitioners work in all fifty states and washington, dc, in many health care settings. they can work independently in their own health care offices or in collaboration with physicians; they also work in clinics, hospitals, outpatient facilities, nursing homes, schools, businesses, correctional facilities, or in home health care agencies.
    what is the difference between a nurse practitioner and an physician's assistance?
    while nurse practitioner and physician assistants may function very similarly and may, in some states be interchangeable in terms of job description, there are differences between the two in legal definition, scope of practice, licensure, and independence of practice. physician assistants practice medicine under the license of a physician, never independently. nurse practitioners may be physician extenders or practice independently, depending upon state law.
    who regulates the nurse practitioner practice?
    nurse practitioners practice under rules and regulations developed by state boards of nursing. in addition, nurse practitioners maybe nationally certified. most nurse practitioners have authority to prescribe medications.
    how does a nurse practitioner's care compare to a physician's care?
    nurse practitioners care for basically everyone with typical health care needs. they focus on well being and preventing health problems. physicians are trained to treat complete health problems that may require complicated treatment or surgery, the high quality of care provided by nurse practitioners is well known. consumer and government studies have shown that nurse practitioners are skilled clinicians and patient educators. also nurse practitioner's sensitivity to the patient's needs and their ability to decrease the mystery surrounding health care.when would i see a nurse practitioner?
    nurse practitioners are qualified to provide you with many health services including the treatment of minor illnesses- and will refer you to a physician if a serious problem is discovered. the nurse practitioner is prepared to deliver a full range of health care services including:
    diagnosis and treatment of acute and choric health care problems
    health promotion and disease prevention
    care for women, children, men, and senior citizens
    diagnosis and management of minor trauma including suturing and splinting
    case management
    conducts physical examination of individuals
    orders, performs, and interprets laboratory tests for screening and for diagnosing
    prescribes medications
    consults with other health care providers about established clients who have been admitted to hospital, home care, rehabilitation, or nursing homes
    nurse practitioners take time to answer your questions and address your concerns. if you want a highly qualified professional to pay attention to your health needs, see a nurse practitioner.


    bonnie huss received her masters in nursing at fort hays state university. she is a family nurse practitioner certified by the american nursing credentialing center. she joined the staff at share medical center in august of 2000. she and her husband, harold, have two children, jamie and skyler. they attend the catholic church in st. leo, kansas.

    this should help with any confusion one might have
    just my thoughts
    zoe


    ps if you would like to see the page inwhich this was taken from
    http://www.smcok.com/media/newspaper...practioner.htm
  5. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Zoe,
    That PA program you're refering to is an on-line, precepted course. That's not typical.

    The prerequisites don't mention GPA requirements specificly or course content of previous credits, just that it must be a 4-year BSN.

    This program stresses that you must have a physician vouch for you, and promise that they will precept you.

    If you are in this program,please don't be offended personaly, but I think it's not mainstream compared to what I've seen. It says that a graduate can sit for PA boards, but it offers no accreditation statement.

    Did I miss it?
  6. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Taken from the Maryland Board of Nursing website

    [QUOTE]B. Before a nurse practitioner may practice he shall:


    (1) Obtain certification under these regulations;

    (2) Enter into a written agreement with a physician whereby the physician on a regularly-scheduled basis shall:

    Read:supervise



    (a) Accept referrals,

    (b) Establish and review drug and other medical guidelines with the nurse practitioner,

    (c) Participate with the nurse practitioner in periodically reviewing and discussing medical diagnoses and the therapeutic or corrective measures employed in the practice setting,

    (d) Jointly sign records if needed to document accountability of both the physician and nurse practitioner,

    (e) Be available for consultation in person, by telephone, or by some other form of telecommunication, and

    (f) Designate an alternate physician if the physician identified in the written agreement temporarily becomes unavailable;

    (3) Obtain approval of the written agreement as set forth in Regulation .06.

    C. A nurse practitioner may practice only in the area of specialization in which he is certified.

    {end quote}

    Looks somewhat more restrictive than the guidelines you were looking at Zoe.
  7. by   kimtab
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I understand that what you are looking for is geared more toward diagnosis and treatment of specific disease. You obviously belong in medical school. You are absolutely right- nursing schools are not in the business of preparing people who may want to be doctors in the future, which is not to say it can't be one way that determined people with limited resources take to get there. If you are trying to warn those few that are in that category they may appreciate it I suppose. I find it hard to believe there are as many as you think who have the same expectations that you do becuase, as you have discovered, it's a different mindset.

    However, diseases do have people behind them. It is very difficult for me to see why you don't consider psychosocial aspects of illness to be a fundamental of patient care in any setting. As a PA you will not be eliminating the sociological and psychological aspects of dealing with ill people. Whether or not you will have more autonomy and respect I'll leave it to someone else to argue.

    That being said, I do understand how you could find it boring and hard to take. I can't say that I never fell asleep in lecture last semester. You haven't said which direction you are going to take now. How did you decide to proceed?

    Kim
  8. by   DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE
    The accrediation is when you sit for the boards one cannot practice unless one has passed the boards and recieved a PAC (which started in 2002)(All courses had to be certified unless already enrolled in the program prior to this date)which is a Physicans Assistant Certified. The MA is to the degree of the Certifications. ie" PAC MA which is how it is signed if the PA is wishing to state their qualifications most just sign PAC. Others that are not Certified which there are some still around sign PA, because they are of BSN qualifications.(The online portions of the classes are classes that the BS Nurse can clept)
    It is at the top of the page.
    And if you do not know this when and if you do go for the PA program if that is what you wish to do you will also as a Student have a Dr agree that you will precept with them under thier license. They are held accountable for you and your actions while you are doing your clinicals.
    No I am not in this program and yes I have considered it but since PA's can not work independently(yes they can work in the office by themselves but the DR co-signs all thier actions) as a Nurse Practioner can I have decided that I will use My Masters Degree to contiue in that area of care.

    A few quickies:
    NPs must get signed-off by an MD. They do not perform independently of the physician
    Just in case you missed it:
    While Nurse Practitioner and Physician Assistants may function very similarly and may, in some states be interchangeable in terms of job description, there are differences between the two in legal definition, scope of practice, licensure, and independence of practice. Physician Assistants practice medicine under the license of a physician, never independently. Nurse practitioners may be physician extenders or practice independently, depending upon state law.
    Your GPA is evaluated by the University itself and thier Medical Instructors, not everyone that applies gets in : They take approximately 20 students at a time and have a Passage rate of 98% in the State Boards.
    Just my thoughts
    Zoe
  9. by   EmeraldNYL
    Wow, this is getting heated! I have to agree with Zoe on this one, because I did a lot of soul-searching and almost went to a PA program but ended up deciding on a 2nd-degree BSN. Alot of other people in my nursing program were also considering PA programs but changed their mind and went to nursing school. The reason is that nurses receive broader training and have more options available to them. Here in Philly, I know of several places that will ONLY hire NPs, and will refuse to hire PAs. And yes, NPs CAN practice independently because they are on their own license while a PA HAS to work under the Dr's license. Also, IMHO, many patients are more familiar with the NP role as opposed to the PA role. When I told several people that I was considering Physician assistant school, they thought I meant MEDICAL assistant, and they really had no clue what a PA was (but they did know what an NP was). Peeps, I really don't get why you hate this psychosocial stuff so much. Yes, I dislike nursing diagnoses and I feel that the pathophysiology is more important, but the psychology is also important. As I have said before, wellness is more than just the absence of disease. It sounds like you are saying that psychology is not a valid field of study and in this case there would be no need for social workers, psychiatrists, and other mental health workers because psychosocial health is not important?! If you really want to study ONLY science, do research and get out of the health care field all together. I would not want to go to either a PA or an NP that didn't give a hoot about my mental/psychosocial health as well as my physical health.
  10. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Kim,
    I'm going to get a degree in biology with a stress in anatomy & physiology. The psychology that I've taken for nursing classes fulfill those of the PA programs. Sadly, all my 7 credits of nursing do is drag my transfer GPA down, I got a "B".......the shame, but it gave me great insight(more than I wanted really ) into the psychosocial aspect. I am done with psychology now.

    My degree in biology will fufill all requirements for admission to a PA program of my choice. No more careplanning, bedbaths, or those ugggggly uniforms:chuckle

    It's important to note that I'm not ready to dispense with the psychosocial aspect altogether. I have alot to learn in regards to the human animal. It just won't be the center of my universe.
  11. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Zoe,
    Your quote about NP scope of practice is from an article a nurse wrote, not from the BON.
    I encourage anyone looking at the program Zoe has posted and thinking it is typical of PA programs, to look at some other PA school requirements and compare them to this program.

    It's a masters in PA studies, but awards a certificate?

    I thought they were separate.
  12. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Emyrald,
    This is from the BON in Pennsylvania

    18.55. Collaborative agreement.
    (a) A collaborative agreement is the signed written agreement between a CRNP and a collaborating physician in which they agree to the details of the collaborative arrangement between them with respect to the care of CRNP patients.

    (b) The collaborative agreement between a physician and a CRNP who will prescribe drugs shall satisfy the following requirements. The agreement shall:

    (1) Identify the parties, including the collaborating physician, the CRNP and a substitute physician who will provide collaboration and direction for up to 30 days if the collaborating physician is unavailable.

    (2) Identify the area of practice in which the CRNP is certified.

    (3) Identify the categories of drugs from which the CRNP may prescribe or dispense in accordance with 18.54 (relating to prescribing and dispensing parameters).

    (4) Contain attestation by the collaborating physician that the physician has knowledge and experience with any drug that the CRNP will prescribe.

    (5) Specify the circumstances and how often the collaborating physician will personally see the patient, based on the type of practice, sites of service and condition of the patient, whether the treatment is for an ongoing or new condition, and whether the patient is new or continuing.

    (6) Specify the conditions under which the CRNP may prescribe a Schedule II controlled substance for up to 72 hours.

    (7) Be kept at the primary practice location of the CRNP and a copy filed with the Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs.

    (8) Be made available for inspection to anyone seeking to confirm the scope of practice of the CRNP.

    (9) Be updated by the collaborating physician and the CRNP whenever it is changed substantively.

    (10) Specify the amount of professional liability insurance carried by the CRNP.

    (c) The CRNP shall notify the Bureau whenever a collaborative agreement of a CRNP who prescribes and dispenses drugs is updated or terminated
    {end quote}
    Doesn't sound like NPs are practicing independently there.
  13. by   DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE
    The quote is also backed up from any Nursing State Board of Certifications.
    PA's are not licensed they are Certified. Hense why they Practice under a Physican. Nuse Practioners HOLD License.
    I suggest you do more research..
    Just a thought
    Zoe

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