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| No. 40 |
Jan 21, 2009, 11:33 AM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs?
OP - I see your point as one of a lack of clarity in roles between RN and LPN. In some places, that IS a problem. In other places, it isn't a problem. So, it's not "obvious" that there's a blurring between roles. Could you describe what situation specifically you are thinking of?
In my opinion, the difference is unclear in too many places. I'm not sure what the solution is, though. One thought I've had is to have ALL nurses on the same curriculum and they can "step off" at various points depending on what type of work they want to do or if circumstances demand they can't continue school at that time.
Since I'm making this up, I'll have basic nursing assistant training a pre-req for entry.
Then, the first level of nursing school would prepare nurses for work in LTC, to work with stable home health patients, and perhaps some office environments. All nurses who finish the first level of training would be a "licensed level 1 nurse."
The next level of nursing care would prepare nurses to work in acute care and to take on supervisory roles (such as in LTC). All nurses who finish the second level of training would be a "licensed level 2 nurse." This would be a very clear distinction of what kind of training is required for that type of work. And even better, all level 2 nurses would know exactly what type of training the level 1 nurses has because they all had it, too.
Just thoughts!!!
| | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 41 |
Jan 21, 2009, 06:38 PM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs? Originally Posted by flightnurse2b there are many things i can do independently of an RN. please remember i have a license too.
i am not going to be in trouble for changing my patient's diapers by myself. or giving them a g-tube feeding by myself. or starting an IV by myself. or check my patient's vital signs by myself.
the north carolina BON says an RN has to make my assignment for me. there are things i must report to my supervisor and things my supervisor must do for me that are out of my scope, unless i am working in my paramedic capacity outside of the hospital. i have the nurse practice act in my clipboard, actually. i know the rules.
but i have my very own scope that i can do, too.
It's the same way here in Florida. An LPN is given an assignment and can carry out that assignment without me having to approve their every move and supervise everything they do. Almost all of their actions can be carried out independently by virtue of the license and the assignment.
In my 17 years of being the RN supervisor of LPNs, not once has an LPN gotten in trouble with the BON for stepping outside their practice, and not once have I ever seen an RN get into any kind of trouble for what an LPN has done "under their license".
| | No. 43 |
Jan 23, 2009, 11:28 AM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs? Originally Posted by flightnurse2b mine too.
i had to have the same pre-reqs, english 1 & 2, anatomy and phys 1 & 2, computers, intermed. or college algebra, chemistry and micro. and pass the same entrance exam.
unfortunately, the waiting list for the RN program, even with an incoming 3.8 GPA on pre-reqs is like 4 years long here. so i did the LPN program and when i start my bridge i only have 4 semesters left (or the 2nd yr of an ADN program, minus traditional peds and OB).
I also know there are excellant LPN nurses out there and have considered myself lucky to have worked with and learned from them but also have a problem with the thinking that we are equal in our knowledge and skills. I don't understand; is there not a standardized program for LPNS as there is for RNS?  The reason I'm asking is because 2 of my youger sisters are LPNS and even their nsg math was not as intense or detailed as Rns, I know this for a fact because when 1 of my sisters attempted to enter the RN program, she found out she would have to take the A&P, Nsg math etc over.This was in an attempt to do the bridge thing where if you have so many years experience as an LPN, and all the preresq. done, you could bridge into 2nd year Rn classes.
| | No. 44 |
Jan 23, 2009, 11:35 AM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs? Originally Posted by whodunit I also know there are excellant LPN nurses out there and have considered myself lucky to have worked with and learned from them but also have a problem with the thinking that we are equal in our knowledge and skills. I don't understand; is there not a standardized program for LPNS as there is for RNS?  The reason I'm asking is because 2 of my youger sisters are LPNS and even their nsg math was not as intense or detailed as Rns, I know this for a fact because when 1 of my sisters attempted to enter the RN program, she found out she would have to take the A&P, Nsg math etc over.This was in an attempt to do the bridge thing where if you have so many years experience as an LPN, and all the preresq. done, you could bridge into 2nd year Rn classes.
different program have different requirements. my school had pre-reqs and my program was also 18 months. some programs have no pre-reqs and are only 12 months. it depends on where you go to school. there really is not a set standard, i guess.
we had to pass college algebra with a C to get into the program. we also had a math test every other wk that required a grade of 88 or above to pass.
| | No. 45 |
Jan 23, 2009, 12:59 PM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs? I think where some of the confusion regarding my original question of "should we merge the LPN and RN programs" is because the roles are VERY similar where I live. I am being trained to be an LPN in Alberta, Canada.
You need to look at the Health Professions Act for Alberta. My recent reading of the Act describes the scope of practice for as LPN with the words "when delegated". This means that an LPN cannot work independently with clients. The client must be under the care of another professional in order for the delegation to take place.
Even the LPN association of Canada describes the role of the LPN as a professional that works in partnership with other health care providers. While RN's also work in partnership they are not limited to that role and can enter into a professional relationship with a client as the primary care provider.
This thread has prompted me to undertake a more thorough investigation of "scope of practice" statements for all provinces in Canada and here is what I have found.
Alberta has the most liberal scope of practice. All scope of practice statements limit the practice of an LPN to "under supervision", "when delegated", or as "assisting" other health care providers.
That's the law.
I continue to investigate this................
| | No. 47 |
Jan 23, 2009, 05:14 PM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs? Originally Posted by jjjoy I've heard similar interpretations before of various nurse practice acts in Northern America. But we're essentially talking about inpatient bedside nursing here, aren't we? Many hospitals have given LPNs roles that almost duplicate that of RN - that is LPNs are responsible for 90% of all nursing care for their assigned patients (such as everything except for the admission assessment and hanging blood). In cases like that, the distinction between LPN and RN can easily become blurred and contentious.
You are correct when you say we carry our own assignment , none the less I am still under the direction of an RN. There is no blurrying of that fact. Yes, I do many many things for which the RN does not need to be next to my side, yet still I am under the direction of an RN. I can not work on the unit without an RN present somewhere on the unit. Nor can any other LPN that I am aware of in this country. Now SNF might be different, but I still believe that an RN is available somewhere in the building.
I do not feel there needs to be contention between us. I as an LPN accept what my role in within my Scope of Practice. I do take offense when the various powers that be try to diminish our roles and our Scope Of Practice as LPN'S.
For those LPN"S who desire returning to school is an option to become an RN.
| | No. 48 |
Jan 23, 2009, 06:21 PM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs?
In some places, it is quite clear that LPNs are working under the direction of RNs. If the RN gets their assignment, takes report on all of them, and then splits their assignment with their designated LPN, then the relationship of RN to LPN is a bit more clear.
In other places, it isn't so clear. In some places, the reality is that the RN who is supposedly overseeing an LPN simply work side by side with the LPN, each taking care of their own assignment independent of each other. In these places, the patient assignment of RNs and LPNs looks very similar, such as six patients each. From taking report from the previous shift to giving report at the end of shift, the LPN deals with all of the patient care (assessments, medications, patient education, etc) without any clear delegating from their supposed delegator. In cases like that, it's not so clear that the RN is delegating to the LPN or is in anyway supporting the LPN outside of a few specific tasks that could be easily learned. In cases like that, I can see why some might think that there's not much difference between LPNs and RNs.
| | No. 49 |
Jan 23, 2009, 06:34 PM
Re: Blurred Boundaries: Should we eliminate the distinction between RNs and LPNs?
JJJoy,
Where I work we receive our assignment at the beginning of the shift. The RNdoes not assessment my patient. If I ask them they will assess a patient that I have concerns about.
Our patients need to be assessed by an RN once every 24 hours. Meaning I follow an Rn who had my patients the shift before. I work fairly autonomously due to my years of experience and the trust I have earned from the RN/s I work with. Yet I understand the boundaries. While I take take orders from a doctors I cannot sign off orders. I understand the Scope. I purposely keep this in mind. I believe an LPN can get themselves into trouble if they truly believe there is little difference between an RN and LPN they have their Scope of Practice and we have ours.
Often my co-workers have forgotten that I am an LPN I remind them. Often they come to me for answers to something they do not know. Why? As I have years of experience. I make it point to study in depth on various diseases and policies and best practice. When an RN asks me how to do something even though it is not in the LPN scope of practice I can verbally tell them the steps they need to take and back it up with what the policy says. None the less I am an LPN make no mistake about it and proud of it. For me the boundaries are not blurred and that is because I make it a point to remember the difference.
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