witnessing a DNR

Nurses General Nursing

Published

We had a patient who was actively dying. The MD spoke with the family and they were deciding whether or not to make this patient a DNR. I went into the patient's room with the primary RN to see the patient; their eyes were glazed over and they were agonal breathing. The patient's extremities were warm but after some time the primary RN & I noticed that they were starting to cool down and the patient started turning pale.

The decision was made to make this patient a DNR. Now we needed witnesses; we had some family members on the unit. I had a patient with a family member in the room, so i decided to ask them. The family member was already sort of awake and I politely explained to them that we have a patient just down the hall and there was a decision to make them a DNR but we needed two witnesses. The witnesses had to be unrelated to the patient/family members and they could not be employees of the hospital.

I told the family member they weren't obligated to be a witness if they didn't want to. The family member said to me, "Oh, but I was sleeping so good, and I don't think I can make it to the room...where is it?" "Just across the hall." "Oh ok, but I don't think I could make it...." and I reminded them they didn't have to be a witness if they didn't want to, and it sounded like they didn't want to do it. Then they started talking about all sorts of other random things before finally (reluctantly) agreeing to witness.

The primary RN was standing in the hall trying to usher me out and I was trying to speed things along...I really wanted to just tell this family member, "the patient is ACTIVELY DYING and if we don't get this DNR signed SOON, we may have a full code on our hands and that would be against the wishes of the family." I then realized that could be a HIPAA violation, so I kept my mouth shut.

We finally arrived to the outside of the patient's room and almost immediately the family member said, "Oh you don't need me" and started walking back, but I told them we needed TWO witnesses, unless of course now they are not agreeing to witness. They reluctantly stayed, signed the paper and then I escorted them back to their room.

It was not like I was trying to twist this family member's arm into witnessing this DNR, but it sure felt like it. In the past I have asked visitors to witness a DNR and they have all immediately agreed to it. I don't know, I was just annoyed by it and I wanted to get this off my chest, I guess! Sorry it was long. Thanks for reading.

In the state of nebraska (where I practice) nurses cannot be witnesses to DNR's and the family does need to sign but only one witness is needed.

Specializes in OB/GYN, Peds, School Nurse, DD.
Huge HIPAA violation and doubt this is the whole story. No institution could get away with this.

I agree. I can't imagine asking visitors to sign a DNR. How is this NOT a violation? And for the record, from what I read in your post I think you did try to strong arm this visitor. As soon as you realized she was reluctant, that should have been the end of it.

Specializes in Occ. Hlth, Education, ICU, Med-Surg.
Trust me, I am NOT okay with the policy. I agree, there are a lot of issues with it and I think it is wrong, but for whatever reason no one has ever said anything about it. Perhaps I can take the issue at hand myself to risk management or whoever.

The "witnesses" did not go into the patient's room.

If they don't go into the room (which, by the way, is a HIPAA violation because you're now disclosing PHI to people that do no have a need to know) what are they "witnessing"?

Specializes in Med/Surg/Tele/Onc.

I remember in the hospital that Hospice ruiquired witnesses to DNRs for ambulance transport, etc. The DNR in the hospital was an MD order, but there was something about when the patient went with Hospice. I also remember family and hospital employees could not witness it, but now I'm unclear what it was.

Specializes in Critical Care (ICU/CVICU).

My hospital does this too....if the Family chooses to be a DNR, there is a form that is filled out that requires 2 witnesses also....and usually hospital visitors are used. I'm in the Houston area. I have seen it as both Family+md order only, and the 2 witnesses form. I will also, look for a policy regarding this.

Specializes in NICU.

Perhaps families & hospital employees cannot witness wills? (As in the who-gets-my-stuff-type of will).

Specializes in Hospice, LTC, Rehab, Home Health.

In FL the official form for DNRO valid outside of a hospital is signed by the patient or the legal representative (POA, HCS, guardian) and the MD/DO. No other witnesses needed.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Perhaps families & hospital employees cannot witness wills? (As in the who-gets-my-stuff-type of will).
a DNR is not a will
Specializes in NICU.
a DNR is not a will
I know...I just thought that may be a possible source of confusion. The term "living will" may mislead some.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

Different states have different regulations and different terminology which is a part of the problem but I have NEVER heard of gathering random visitors to witness any document about another patient.

I am sure we don't have the complete story....If we do then the hospital is doing something against HIPAA.

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