Why is it... (nurses constantly throw jabs at physicans) - page 7

Let me preface this by saying I am around nurses, and nursing students more so I don't get to hear the other side but that being said..... Why do nurses constantly feel the need to throw jabs at... Read More

  1. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from LPN2Be2004
    I know this will be a huge surprise, but there already is a thread on this.
    don't even *******' tease me about that! tell me you're kidding.
  2. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from earle58
    don't even *******' tease me about that! tell me you're kidding.

    Here ya go:

    http://allnurses.com/forums/showthre...ht=misspelling
  3. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from LPN2Be2004
    i just read the full 7 pages. UNBELIEVABLE. :stone
  4. by   Dayray
    Quote from NP2BE
    I am going to tell you a secret that only doctors and nurse know.... we don't really need them.


    This is one of the most ridiculous things yet said. Does this mean if you changed the laws as to who could prescribe, diagnose, and do surgery among other doctor restricted skills, or just that maybe you could deeply comfort someone while standing by and watching the, die of breast cancer yet since you have no surgical training, you couldn't perform a mastectomy, etc ad nauseum. Patients need docs and nurses, don't be ridiculous.
    While I don't really appreciate being called "Idiotic" or "ridiculous" I have to admit the poster of these comments has a point. Perhaps I misstated my thought by the statement I made. Let me clarify...

    I'm going to tell you a secret We don't need them At least not in the current role they are now.

    What I mean by that is that doctors should be a part of the health care team as apposed to being the center of it. Yes the patient is supposed to be the center, but we all know that so very many times that is not the case. Too many times patients are set in second place to the needs/ desires of the doctor.

    Now I don't mean all doctors and despite my frustration I don't hate all doctors in fact I don't hate anyone. I do however hate the way things end up revolving around doctors and hate the fact that many times a patients fate rests in the hands of one person (appointed by their HMO).

    Solution? widen the scope of nursing. As nurses we are already legally responsible for any orders we execute. If something bad happens the person who actually performed the task would be held accountable. We are expected to know and understand any drugs we give and to know and understand any intervention we perform. So if we are legally accountable for these things then why do we have to beg permission from MD's to do them?

    As nurses we are the patient advocate, if a doctor were to do something reckless or harmful we would also be liable for not stopping them. But when you try to stop them you get resistance from every one because "they are the doctor".

    How many times have you called an MD for something a patient needed and been yelled at for bothering the MD? How many times have you had a doc refuse to give you an order just so they could show you they are the boss? I've actually seen a some docs cross out orders (after they have been done) just because they are mad at the nurse and want to get them in trouble.

    Yes there are good doctors and yes there are bad nurses, I'm not arguing that but I don't think any one person should have so much power over the system.

    I'll give you some examples of what I'm talking about:

    (all these happened this week)

    I had a patient who was complete first baby and was exhausted, I turned out the lights and told her to sleep for an hour before we started pushing. I walk out to the desk where the doc is sitting and she says "I need to get out of here, go push with the patient", I explained that the patient should rest and that she would push much better after a little while, I was told (very sternly) " I don't want to wait around here all night, go now!" so I have a choice, I can face off with the doc (a battle I'm very likely to lose) or go wake my patient. So I wake her up, start pushing and then Am told to stop because the doctor has an emergency out of the hospital. I was discussed, this patients care completely hinged on the doctors whim.

    #2 I had a patient that needed a C-section, I called the doctor with a report that I was sure would bring them in ( I won't go in to detail but strong indications were present). They didn't come in and I was chastised for some of the interventions I had done. The patient wasn't in immediate danger so I waited a bit longer. 2 hours later I called the doctor and told them they had to come in, I was yelled at and yelled at again when they got their. We did the C section and later the doc told me I was right (it was far to obvious to argue with). What if I had left the doctor alone? (which is what they wanted me to do) My patients baby might have died. This is what we do as nurses we advocate for the patient but we shouldn't have to beg or be yelled at, We should have a little more clout and not have to take so much crap and risk so much liability in advocating.

    Now I have no desire to preform surgery nor do which to see a patient die because their are no doctors to preform surgery. I don't want to be a doctor and I don't have a problem being a subordinate to someone. I do however feel that nursing stands in the legal shadow of medicine and that this negatively impacts care.

    Your name is NP2be, NP's care for patients and refer to doctors for things out of an NP's scope, which is fine an NP should have the training necessary to determine what they need to refer. Why though, do NP's have to work Under the supervision of an MD? is the MD going to review all of your cases? no.. but yet you still need to be supervised by an MD. So you are acting pretty much independently but need the stamp of approval of an MD, and if there is ever a problem or a mistake on your part the MD is going to deny any knowledge of your actions and feed you to the legal dogs.


    This is another case of care revolving around an MD. Why are NP's forced to work under MD's? why are nurses forced to call MD's for orders they will be responsible for anyway? Why do patients go without things they need only because MD's are unwilling to give their approval?

    if we are not qualified to make decisions why are we then held liable for them? and even better why are we held liable when those decisions aren't made?

    Ok so I'm not saying that Nurses should be able to do all the things doctors can. Nursing interventions are aimed at alleviating symptoms and assisting the doctor in treating medical problems. So why can't we give a damn Tylenol or throw in a foly or IV without a doctors order? why can't an NP or CNM work without a "supervising" physician? Why are we forced to tailor patient care around the doctors personal life and moods?
    Last edit by Dayray on May 29, '04
  5. by   FranEMTnurse
    [QUOTE=CNM2B]Actually Leslie, that's oui oui! LOL LOL LOL!!!![/QUOTE\] Okay, I got the drift the first time around leslie. Ya just had to fill in your own little misspelled words too, right?:chuckle
    Last edit by FranEMTnurse on May 31, '04
  6. by   FranEMTnurse
    Quote from Dayray
    While I don't really appreciate being called "Idiotic" or "ridiculous" I have to admit the poster of these comments has a point. Perhaps I misstated my thought by the statement I made. Let me clarify...

    I'm going to tell you a secret We don't need them At least not in the current role they are now.

    What I mean by that is that doctors should be a part of the health care team as apposed to being the center of it. Yes the patient is supposed to be the center, but we all know that so very many times that is not the case. Too many times patients are set in second place to the needs/ desires of the doctor.

    Now I don't mean all doctors and despite my frustration I don't hate all doctors in fact I don't hate anyone. I do however hate the way things end up revolving around doctors and hate the fact that many times a patients fate rests in the hands of one person (appointed by their HMO).

    Solution? widen the scope of nursing. As nurses we are already legally responsible for any orders we execute. If something bad happens the person who actually performed the task would be held accountable. We are expected to know and understand any drugs we give and to know and understand any intervention we perform. So if we are legally accountable for these things then why do we have to beg permission from MD's to do them?

    As nurses we are the patient advocate, if a doctor were to do something reckless or harmful we would also be liable for not stopping them. But when you try to stop them you get resistance from every one because "they are the doctor".

    How many times have you called an MD for something a patient needed and been yelled at for bothering the MD? How many times have you had a doc refuse to give you an order just so they could show you they are the boss? I've actually seen a some docs cross out orders (after they have been done) just because they are mad at the nurse and want to get them in trouble.

    Yes there are good doctors and yes there are bad nurses, I'm not arguing that but I don't think any one person should have so much power over the system.

    I'll give you some examples of what I'm talking about_:

    (all these happened this week)

    I had a patient who was complete first baby and was exhausted, I turned out the lights and told her to sleep for an hour before we started pushing. I walk out to the desk where the doc is sitting and she says "I need to get out of here, go push with the patient", I explained that the patient should rest and that she would push much better after a little while, I was told (very sternly) " I don't want to wait around here all night, go now!" so I have a choice, I can face off with the doc (a battle I'm very likely to lose) or go wake my patient. So I wake her up, start pushing and then Am told to stop because the doctor has an emergency out of the hospital. I was discussed, this patients care completely hinged on the doctors whim.

    #2 I had a patient that needed a C-section, I called the doctor with a report that I was sure would bring them in ( I won't go in to detail but strong indications were present). They didn't come in and I was chastised for some of the interventions I had done. The patient wasn't in immediate danger so I waited a bit longer. 2 hours later I called the doctor and told them they had to come in, I was yelled at and yelled at again when they got their. We did the C section and later the doc told me I was right (it was far to obvious to argue with). What if I had left the doctor alone? (which is what they wanted me to do) My patients baby might have died. This is what we do as nurses we advocate for the patient but we shouldn't have to beg or be yelled at, We should have a little more clout and not have to take so much crap and risk so much liability in advocating.

    Now I have no desire to preform surgery nor do which to see a patient die because their are no doctors to preform surgery. I don't want to be a doctor and I don't have a problem being a subordinate to someone. I do however feel that nursing stands in the legal shadow of medicine and that this negatively impacts care.

    Your name is NP2be, NP's care for patients and refer to doctors for things out of an NP's scope, which is fine an NP should have the training necessary to determine what they need to refer. Why though, do NP's have to work Under the supervision of an MD? is the MD going to review all of your cases? no.. but yet you still need to be supervised by an MD. So you are acting pretty much independently but need the stamp of approval of an MD, and if there is ever a problem or a mistake on your part the MD is going to deny any knowledge of your actions and feed you to the legal dogs.


    This is another case of care revolving around an MD. Why are NP's forced to work under MD's? why are nurses forced to call MD's for orders they will be responsible for anyway? Why do patients go without things they need only because MD's are unwilling to give their approval?

    if we are not qualified to make decisions why are we then held liable for them? and even better why are we held liable when those decisions aren't made?

    Ok so I'm not saying that Nurses should be able to do all the things doctors can. Nursing interventions are aimed at alleviating symptoms and assisting the doctor in treating medical problems. So why can't we give a damn Tylenol or throw in a foly or IV without a doctors order? why can't an NP or CNM work without a "supervising" physician? Why are we forced to tailor patient care around the doctors personal life and moods?
    Dayray, very well put. IMHO, nurses should be more respected by more docs, because they have saved many docs from making fatal mistakes, and is why I do hold them in high esteem. And the poor caring nurse (I'm talking about the ones who really do care, and not the ones who are there for the paycheck) catch it from all ends. The docs, the managers, and even sometimes the patients. However, they overlook most of what the patients do and say, because they know the patient needs to be there. Yep! I definitely DO believe that NURSES DESERVE A WHOLE LOT MORE RESPECT, because they are the soldiers on the front lines. My opinion, and I make no apologies whatsoever.:hatparty:
  7. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from Frances LeMay
    Okay, I got the drift the first time around leslie. Ya just had to fill in your own little misspelled words too, right?:chuckle
    what am i going to do with you fran?? i thought i was the only slow one. :chuckle
  8. by   FranEMTnurse
    Quote from earle58
    what am i going to do with you fran?? i thought i was the only slow one. :chuckle
    It's the anemia, I tell ya, It's the anemia. It has now fogged up my thinking. Aargh! Toodle oooh!
  9. by   StreetRN
    Over the past 21 years, I have worked with many compassionate, educated physicians. I have also worked with many non compassionate, ego based physicians. From a nursing perspective, it is highly frustrating to see patient care decisions made for the wrong reasons. (i.e. insurance status/physician convenience/peer pressure) I have had patients die because they showed up in the ED when the physician was having a bad day. I have had patients die because the physician was afraid of being sued. I have had patients die because the physician just couldn't see the big picture. I have worked with impaired physicians. Quite possibly the bashing comes from instances like these. In each case, the physicians did not see anything wrong with the decisions; however, they did seem upset about the outcomes when the lawyers came calling. The face of medicine is changing. What was once a noble field, dedicated to easing pain and suffering has become a superficial job, dedicated to social status and oriented by greed. Even their wives talk of the bad attitude, the constant bashing, the ego trips, the pressure to be "rich and thin". It's a sad commentary on health care.

    .
    Quote from NP2BE
    Let me preface this by saying I am around nurses, and nursing students more so I don't get to hear the other side but that being said.....

    Why do nurses constantly feel the need to throw jabs at physicans at every turn. "Dr. never listen" "that resident did this" That medical student.."

    This is a form of professional insecurity. It showls a lack of professionalism. If we want to show our professionalism, we should respect other professions. And I have said this before and heard " well they should respect us" Are we in the 3rd grade? Our competency should speak for itself, we don't need to degrade ouselves by whining and acting like babies.

    Just my .02
  10. by   katscan
    I just read this whole thread and am saddened at the pokes and jabs directed to the original poster when she(I am using she for convenience) was only asking a question /expressing her opinion. From her standpoint, her thoughts are her reality. To make comments to her to "grow up" is unfair. This same kind of attitude was directed to one of our beginning school nurses and she was really discouraged. Some of the older nurses took her remarks as being ignorant and idealistic. They laughed at her and cut her down behind her back. Let face it folks, we ALL make idealistic or ignorant comments at times--No matter what age or degree of experience we have. I tried to support her and encourage her. As I am doing now. Things can be bad in nursing in "the real world" as we know. Who knows, maybe NP2Be will be one of the ones to help promote change.I hope so. Also, I have been a nurse since '73 and am 53 years old, in case anyone wants to challenge my age and/and or experience.
  11. by   leslie :-D
    if it were as cut and dry as that, then there wouldn't be the skeptism. but the undertone of the poster was insulting and presumptuous....at least that is how it was perceived. i am not disagreeing that sometimes the remarks are a bit ascerbic but on the flip side, when a student nurse comes across as a know all, be all type then there has to be a redirection to reality. period.
  12. by   loerith
    Been an ICU nurse for years. OR was a nightmare. The docs there treat the nurses worse than any area I have ever worked in.

    There are some very competent, friendly. courteous doctors. But the competency part seems to be a bigger problem for me personally than the politeness/courtesy or lack thereof.

    The best way I know to explain what I mean by lack of competency by doctors in general is by this. When I used to orient new nurses in the ICU I would tell them; "you are a shield between your patient and the doctor."

    Need I say more?


    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  13. by   katscan
    How one reads a post and interprets it is individual. To me, she was not insulting or presumptious. Naive maybe? Inexperienced? Therefor, I don't say that I answered in a "cut and dry " fashion. People are free to make comments according to their inner responses. Not everyone on this board had your perception. If she did come across as a know it all to some, I honestly don't think this was her intent. After all, who wants to get on a board and be cut down as she has been? To her credit, she did answer almost all of the posts directed to her, both good and bad.

close