Why is education not valued within our profession? - page 4
why is education not highly valued within the nursing profession? think about the large scheme of other "professions". education is held in high regard. why is this not the case in nursing? ... Read More
Nov 12, '01Ditto.... just a hunch too.....and Nursing "on the floor" are two very different worlds...
I loved attaining my BSN (after my ADN) ... but come on.... it is so much "Ivory Tower Nursing"... a wonderful emvironment to discuss and debate issues from... a wonderful learning environment, yes....
You must "walk the walk" before you know to "talk the talk"... After a few years of being in the real world (of Nursing) I have changed many of my views on Nursing.
It is true to gain professional status as a group we need to have high goals and seek a higher education level. That alone will not solve our plight of OUR image. Now is not the time to expect this to happen...
People treat you the way you expect to be treated (I think I am quoting Oprah). I do not allow a negative or condecening attitude to permiate my surroundings. I have left more then one job because I did not like the way I was treated.
Brandy... your youth and enthusiasm is wonderful. Your training in Nursing will serve you well... I wish you peace, joy, patience, and continued energy to pursue your goals.....
Nov 12, '01brandy, i think you are missing the point. i dont think we "devalue" education. we just dont have the same values as said before.
i WILL get my BSN..not because i HAVE to but because i WANT to..for ME.
it will make me a better nurse only because it will make me a better person...not in comparison to anyone else with any other degrees.
i think the best nurses are the ones with the most experience and still carry the passion for their work.
you dont get that from books.
and it keeps being said that a BSN as entry level will bring us more respect and i keep asking how?
im not being a smartass...i just dont understand how you are seeing this.
Nov 12, '01I think perhaps it was Brandy's point that was missed. Her question was simple, why don't we value more education? If she had just stopped there, the remainder of the ensuing debate would not have been relevant. But she went on to surmise that perhaps this could elevate the status of the profession. Which of course hits some where they live and rather than answer the original question bought about a battle of the egos.
Interesting. An associates degree in the electrical field will qualify you to be an electrical technician. But you will never be the electrical engineer until you receive a bachelors. The difference? The technician can do the hands on work.... but it is driven by the vision of the engineer who dreams up the concepts and has the technician implement them.
I will agree there is more hands on practice in many ADN programs. So perhaps the idea of being a registered nurse technician, rather than a registered nurse, drives the ferocious defense of ADN entry level education. Justification for accepting the lowest common denominator for educational preparation. I can see the chips growing on all those shoulders already.
I have also read that the MSN prepared nurse should perhaps stay at the bedside. I suppose this nurse should also accept the same pay and have the same duties as the ADN. Then what is the point?
The fact of the matter is that nursing is more than a set of tasks. Life experience is beneficial to BSN and ADN students. Opening your mind to things you initially think are not applicable may lead to a broader base from which to think.
I support your opinion Brandy. I don't think it will ever be implemented for several reasons. From an administrative stand point acceptance of the lowest common educational denominator keeps our wages and our position on the lower rungs of healthcare intact. Makes us more controllable. Plays right into the hands of administrators. Although those resistant to change are often unable to see this from their position high on the us vs. them soapbox. From within the ranks, there is much insecurity about what requiring more education would do to those that are unwilling to acquire it. Would they make less money? Would they be relegated to technical tasks? They are the majority, and as such will most likely prevail.
Feel free to rip this up however you would like. But in the process please offer one insightful reason why you personally think more education is unnecessary. Tell me why being the electrical technicians of healthcare is ok with you.
Laura, BSN, MSN candidate
Nov 12, '01Laura,
You make a great comparison with the electronic technician vs engineer. Only problem, you put little thought into the facts. To compare the two fields, we must look at what each does. The engineer oversees the big picture. The engineer develops the product. The engineer passes his thoughts and ideas onto the technician. In medicine, the doctor is the engineer. The doctor oversees the entire process. The doctor uses the nurse to monitor his problem, just as the engineer does with the technician. The doctor passes his plan on to the nurse, just as the engineer does with the technician. The doctor is more the analytical function in medicine, as is the engineer in the electrical field. The nurse is the hands-on...the skill performer in medicine, just as the technician is in the electrical field. So see, before we compare oranges to apples, we must make sure are picking from the same orchard.
You are so quick to assume that people are intimidated by education. That's ridiculous. There's not an ADN practicing today that wouldn't be grandfathered in if the minimum was raised to a BSN. There's no reason for fear. The problem lies when people take the stand that more education ALWAYS means better nursing. I'm still waiting for that to be proven. Why are ADN's irritated by this concept? Because many of us work circles around BSN's on a daily basis. To have someone point a finger and say that WE are hurting the nursing profession is complete BS. The constant inner bickering between nurses, the desire for some nurses to alienate other nurses simply because one has more education, it's the inability to unite..it's all these things that hurt our profession, NOT the lack of BSN's in the field.
Nov 12, '01How much of this (the lack of appreciation) of Nurses is based on it being a female dominated field?
Okay.. ducking and off I go.... flame retardent garments on...
Nov 12, '01I personally feel that there needs to be SOME incentive for continuing education - otherwise, what is the point, other than personal satisfaction? I make the same as an ADN nurse at the bedside, yet, I put in more hours of schooling and have a higher student loan to pay off. What is the incentive for others to get a BSN?
I agree, Tracy, that a BSN does not guarantee a better nurse. Just as a BA in Business or a BA in Computer Programming does not guarantee a better employee in THAT field. But I do believe that further education does not hurt. If you take a damn good ADN nurse, or , and then give him/her a BSN, he/she is now, I believe, an even BETTER nurse than before, as you have equipped him/her with skills that he/she did not have before completion of the degree.
A BSN is more than just humanities courses. You'd be amazed and what you learn.
Nov 12, '01Some of the mentors I have learned the most from have been LPN's! They are nurses with years of experience, and truly know that the patient cares more about good pericare and a backrub than if the chart is in order. I was a BSN grad from a top program that gave me maybe two full-time weeks of clinical experience. I didn't learn a THING about what it is to be a nurse until I left school and worked with people.
Nov 12, '01I get an extra 50$ a paycheck because I have my BSN. Sooooo... I should make up the difference in the tuition costs by 2003. How's that for motivation? After that I'll have an extra 100$ a month to waste on chocolate and movies! That extra year will be worth it!
Brandy, be proud of your degree, just like an ADN nurse should be proud of hers. Nurses ***** about new grads from every type of program in my experience. Didn't you know that we never even went to nursing school? We just hatched as full blown perfect nurses, which is why we sometimes feel the need to put down new grads.
Nov 13, '01Not too long ago, I had one of my colleauges ask me, "Kelly, if you aren't planning on getting into management, then why did you get your BSN?"
I was floored! I told her that I had always wanted a college education and that it was actually cheaper for me to go to a 4 year program than it was the two year program. See the area that I grew up in, Erie Pennsylvania, has 4 colleges--Edinboro University(my alma mater), Gannon University(catholic and WAY expensive), Mercyhurst College(private and also expensive) and Penn State-Behrend. Only the first two offered Nursing programs and with Gannon being the only one that offered an ADN. Gannon was so expensive that getting my BSN at Edinboro which is a state school-therefore tuition is cheaper--cost less than getting an ADN at Gannon.
Actually, I never even considered going for the ADN--it was the BSN or nothing--sure it took me 5 years but I had fun while I was in college and I took classes on all kinds of interesting things and even learned how to speak spanish. Not that I remember much of it now--the Spanish--but it comes in handy now and then.
And in PA, they don't require that you obtain CEU's to renew your license. I think that it is a shame. A lot of nurses I know don't even subscribe to any nursing magazines. I work in Ohio now and have to get 24 CEU's every 2 years. My license and my patients are worth the expense.
I may return to school for my MSN. The things that are holding me back are time and money. Plus, I really don't want to have to take the GRE or MAT. I am so terrible at Math!
But I digress!
Nov 13, '01Suz,
I absolutely agree that one should be compensated for the higher degree. I even think the pathetic fifty-cents or one dollar difference that SOME employers offer is not enough compensation for the two extra years of sacrifice. I'll even give you the notion that two more years would enhance my nursing abilities. My problem comes with the attitude that ADN's lack the nursing knowledge of BSN's (in general) and that ADN/diploma nurses are the root of the public's view on nursing.
As I've said before, I could kick my own butt for not getting my BSN, so I'm not defending anyone from "stepping on my toes". I've done that myself. I just don't feel the "better than thou" attitudes that many BSN's direct towards ADN/diploma nurses are warranted. Just as many say about the LPN vs RN debate, I work with a mix of ADN and BSN nurses. My hospital pays no differential (until this past week, I thought they paid a .50 diff, but I was misled), and perhaps that is why I see no difference in the capabilities of the two levels. Maybe the cream of the BSN crop goes elsewhere? I'm a big advocate for education. I feel the greatest investment in life, short of children, is education.
Just don't try to tell me a BSN education was more productive than mine when you "didn't walk my mile". Quantity education does not necessarily mean > quality.
Nov 13, '01I can speak for myself, when I say that I have never ever made anyone feel inferior to me simply because I have a BSN and they do not. On my unit, most of the RN's that I work with are ADN prepared. I am one of the few RN's with a BSN.
If I came across as sounding superior in my above post--that was not the intention at all. I just chose to go for the BSN.
Nov 13, '01I believe Brandi has way too much time on her hands. If she is still in school, how does she have time to post so many messages? When I was in school, many years ago, my days, evenings, and nights were spent with studying, care plans, patient care assignments, assessments, communication assessments, exams, etc.
It is great when students, especially young ones, can begin at a university and complete a BSN degree. Is this reality? Not on your life! How many excellent nurses would not have been able to go to school if not for the ADN programs?
I am a first generation college graduate, from an extremely economically disadvantaged part of the country. I went to the local community college right out of high school. Without my ADN degree I would never be where I am today.
Currently, I have an advanced degree, an administrative position, and a wonderful career. However, without the ADN DEGREE I would NEVER be where I am today.
Brandi, not everyone is as fortunate as you. Many people have circumstances that preclude them from going the BSN route. Are they inferior? No! Do they devalue education? No.
Values. Is your BSN program not teaching you to resept other peoples choices and values? I believe your faculty have failed you in this arena. Nurses, and nursing students, should be taught to respect and understand everyone's choices and values.
Brandi, let's look at this post in 10 years after you have some time in the profession. I would wager you will have a different frame of mind.
Good luck in school!