When do they get a return on investment?

BrandonLPN, LPN · Jul 31, 2012

For me, it's not about morals but about my self interest. Nursing is a small community and my specialty is even smaller. I don't know what the future holds, who exactly my employer has relationships, or where my supervisors will end up working in a few years. But it wouldn't be unlikely for our paths to cross again at some point. So keeping my employer's concerns in mind isn't a moral issue for me but a pragmatic one that ultimately IS about what's best for me.

That's a good point and I agree. But what more could an employer possibly want than for an employee to give a formal two weeks notice? To expect us to stay until we've "paid off" our orientation is unreasonable.

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Jul 31, 2012

... I will concede that an employer who abuses the employees is not owed anything...

Hi, LLG. You know I love your posts.

Think the standard laid out above is a bit too lenient. Employees aren't justified in departing from a facility only because they're abused. This is way too high a standard.

It appears posters to this thread are split between focusing on the employer's end of the relationship or the employees' side.

Sure new hires have a implied obligation to their employers, and it's prudent for them to be concerned with how a short stay may be interpreted by future employers.

But employers too have obligations and responsibilities to new, and existing, staff... from orientation and beyond. And prudent facilities assess and react to the working environment and the treatment of staff... again no matter whether new or otherwise.

A nurse doesn't typically wake up one day and thinks: "hey, you know what? I'm tendering my resignation today."

Most nurses leave for specific reasons... most of which employers have some control over. Usual culprits: crappy orientation, work environment / relationships, conditions of employment, wages, other reasons... for all these, fill in whatever the specific issue may be.

Some on the thread have mentioned an "insular" work environment, lesser compensation, etc.

If employers truly care about protecting their investment in new hires, then they need to do a good job themselves in making sure everything goes well during orientation. Similarly, if they wish to safeguard the years of experience existing staff have accumulated at their expense.

This whole deal is a two-way street, with employers having the most control over the... "street."

Nurses quit for various reasons. If the original hiring decision was a good one, then employers have to presume those reasons are oftentimes very valid. That then raises the question: What did management do, or not do, that may have impacted on the quit?

dirtyhippiegirl, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2012

You know, my husband works in the engineering/IT field. The idea of worker loyalty went out the window years and years ago -- along with salaries, decent benefits, pensions, and the expectation that one could expect to be employed with the same company for more than two or three years.

How is nursing any different?

classicdame, MSN, EdD · Jul 31, 2012

I do not think cost should be an issue. For one thing, you are not considering costs related to marketing and HR for each person hired. If you are going to leave, do so. Think of it like this, if the employer wanted to fire you would they wait till a certain period when it was cost-effective? No.

llg, PhD, RN · Jul 31, 2012

I am actually "in the middle" on the overall issue. While I have tried to explain the cost factors in this thread, I am not 100% "on the side" of the employer. As I said, "it's a 2-way street." I believe both parties have obligations.

I think it is wrong for employers to treat their employees badly -- and I think it is wrong to treat your employer badly. I don't think people are obligated to work long enough to "pay back" the full costs of their orientation, but I truly don't believe that the "s**** them" attitude is a good one to have, either. It gives you, the individual, a bad reputation and may cause the employer to be less generous with future new hires. Nobody wins.

Sometimes, circumstances exist that justify leaving very quickly during or immediately after orientation. But it is not something that should be done lightly -- and should not be the norm.

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Aug 1, 2012

Agree with ya LLG.

We as managers need to do more to ensure the overall environment is good and remains that way.

We lost an excellent, experienced nurse this month for a dumb reason. She continued to get piled on with work at changeover, without getting the needed help. She had previously notified management of the prob, but was ignored for months.

In essence, we "handed over" a great employee to another facility.

She was smart, knowledgeable, likeable, courteous, a pleasure to work with, and lightning fast. What a shame.

royhanosn · Aug 1, 2012

its similar to a mortgage, amortize it, not google-ize it.

Most hospitals you have to work for a period of time, i.e. 3 years to pay off their part of the debt they incurred educating you. Then after that you can take off.

Otherwise, you could be forced to pay back the payments or part payment they made.

This is a learning experience for you.

UOTE=hiddencatRN;6754545]I recently started a new job working part time. I'll skip the details, but basically, it's not going to work out for me to stay here. I feel bad to be planning on leaving so soon, and would feel a bit better if we can guesstimate that I've "worked off" the cost of my orientation.

So that brings me to my question: is there any sort of algorithm for breaking even on orientation costs versus the value of my labor? Like, x days orientation breaks even in y weeks?

wildboo · Aug 1, 2012

For a new employee in general, the cost is around $20,000. For new grads, that number might be more, because you are investing in more classes and more time like 6 months or so, as opposed to about 3 for a seasoned nurse. Regardless. If you are unhappy, why make yourself miserable?

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Aug 1, 2012

Is there a connection between this thread and the one titled: "The Unwritten Laws Nurse Managers Live By"???

Just askin'. :)

hidesert · Aug 1, 2012

Unless I was really impossibly miserable at a job, I would not leave after less than a year. Mostly because I think it looks really bad on a resume and I would have a hard time explaining that to a new employer. If there is a systems problem, perhaps you can talk to your nurse manager or work on a process improvement project to fix what is bothering you, if it's something that can be fixed.

I must agree with this. I would try to stick it out, at least six months. I know that something like 1/3 of new grads change jobs the first year, but in any job, it still looks iffy on that next resume attempt. No matter the reason. They want to keep you, so give them a chance to help you fix the problems so you could decide to stay there. Then at least they (and you) know you have tried.

Also, even though it is illegal in most places to gossip about an former employee to a prospective employer, people still do it, off the record. Preserve your reputation. It is important in this field. Good luck to you. Nursing is difficult and worth it.

rngolfer53 · Aug 1, 2012

There's also costs of recruiting, screening, drug tests, interviews, etc.

Even as an experienced nurse, your productivity won't be initially great when you get off formal orientation. Every job and setting has its own quirks and it takes time to learn these and navigate them efficiently.

I often wonder why agencies don't figure out that turnover is more expensive than maybe hiring an extra nurse or two, reducing the burnout level, and keeping more satisfied employees.

SENSUALBLISSINFL, BSN, RN · Aug 2, 2012

I am finding this post very interesting. I know of hospitals making new graduates sign contracts, but I have actually not stopped to consider the ramifications of leaving before the contract was up. Is it wishful thinking that all will work out?

I am a new grad, soon to add RN to my last name. I worked at my last employer for close to 25 years. I stayed that long because I liked the job, and the doctors were considerate and good to the staff, it was in the last three to four years that this changed when a new doctor took over and the direction that the office took was negative - and not to get into much detail here, the morale of the office suffered along the way. The teamwork of the staff was good, better when things were great, but as the years deteriorated the environment, we had to actually fight to maintain a positive attitude with each other to survive such negativity.

I stayed these last four years because I decided to back to school and I needed to work to pay my way to school and I figured I knew this job so well, mind as well stay a little longer and bare it. It was stressful and difficult to go to school and study under such conditions but I put up by always keeping my eye on the goal. So I ask, how can I; a new grad, know what kind of teamwork and how good management is to the staff before I accept the job in a hospital, so as not to leave before my commitment is up? Where can I check how the unit runs where I will be placed? The employer will check my criminal background, references, medical physical, etc. How do I know that they do not overwhelm the nurses with patients when is not safe practice and abuse them? (I know of a friend who got hired in a med-surge floor, be told he would never have more than five patients at a time, when the fact turned out to be different, he hates to go to work every single day).

The employer it appears, has the advantage over the employee, we cannot check their references unless we are privy that there is a high turnover in that unit -- that would indicate to me that there is something wrong with management and I will definitely stay away, but what are the chances I will get to know that before I say "yes, I want to work here"?

A good environment would make for a low turnover for new nurses, and though I understand that I will be oriented and that the hospital will invest money on me, I find it hard to accept that I will owe them anything if they do not treat me right, and I will not know that until I work there.

If one is not happy, then why must we stay? Our profession is demanding and hard enough as it is. I certainly do not want to repeat the last four years again - EVER, that is how bad it was.

PS....After putting up with my employer, he laid me off two weeks shy of my scheduled NCLEX-RN, "downsizing" was the reason given. God gave me this gift I believe, two weeks that I can study full time. Now the people left behind want to leave too, and this saddens me in a way, patients come to appreciate seeing familiar faces, they build up trust.