What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 17

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More

  1. by   RN4NICU
    Quote from Susy K
    My opinion: people use the NCLEX as the be-all-end-all of a nurse. NCLEX is a standardized test (which many nursing schools prepare you for - ie: teaching to the test) and represents novice safe practice. The NCLEX is the bare-minimum needed to practice. I certainly don't hold it up as any sort of benchmark.

    Secondly, from an educator's point of view, a bachelor's degree is much more than reciting Shakespeare for heaven's sake. And I fully disagree that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Just like a cardiologist is not an obstetrician is not a radiologist. Why do we generalize nurses but not physicians?
    Right on!!

    If we are going to shun education - why not just skip college altogether and make the whole darned thing OJT?

    Do you think engineers need the liberal arts classes they take in their degree programs to perform their day to day jobs? Nope.

    Do they still have to take those classes to get their degrees? Yes.

    Do they have associate's degree level engineers? Yes. They are technicians that report to the engineer with the Bachelor's degree.

    Could those folks probably do everything the engineers with the higher degree can do? Once they become experienced, they could probably do more - but they still don't have the degree.

    Should people with higher levels of education be paid more? Yes.
    Last edit by RN4NICU on Jul 18, '04
  2. by   zenman
    Quote from UCLARN
    WHen the original poster wrote this, I don't think it was his intention to ask about each and every clients schooling level. When he said "education level" I think he meant that to mean health educational level. Now seriously, you didn't think that he asked people "Do you have a bachelor's?" All of us assess our patient's health educational level and needs. Now c'mon... dig a little deeper and see what his statements really mean.
    No, I meant to say that you determine a patients educational level, high school, college etc.. Don't you guys even see this in the MDs assessments? As it says in Bate's Physical Assessment and History Taking, determine a patients "last level of schooling." You will plan your patient teaching, discharge planning, etc., based on their educational level (among other factors). Your teaching will be different based on whether they only completed the 8th grade or if they have a masters degree. My parents only went to the 9th grade, and as much as I love them, they are pretty damn dumb when it comes to the health care field. I explain things a lot differently to them than I would to someone else.
  3. by   Q.
    Quote from earle58
    if one is pursuing a bsn, i would certainly hope that it IS all nursing courses, and not gen'l ed., as then it would be rather futile.
    May I ask what it is you are basing this opinion on? (that these courses are futile? Have you taken these courses? And you found no value in them whatsoever? If that is true, I feel bad for you).

    I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

    Do you think certain courses are included in curricula so you know more about that certain topic? It isn't. Every single "general ed" course I took, I can relate right back to my current job as a nurse.

    Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

    Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

    What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

    I could go on and on.

    My opinion is if someone wants to learn only nursing courses (which encourage memorizing and recall of facts) then he/she is missing out on learning a whole bunch of skills that I feel are paramount to professional practice.
    Last edit by Susy K on Jul 18, '04
  4. by   suzy253
    Quote from Susy K
    I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

    Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

    Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

    What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

    I could go on and on.
    Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.
    Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.

    Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well. It's just not true. There are alot reasons ppl don't chose to the BSN route and you have no need to feel bad for you as you kindly put it. I'm flourishing in my diploma program and would not have chosen any other route. No pity from you please...I insist.
  5. by   nursemike
    [Quote]
    You also made a comment that asking people their educational level was degrading. Last time I checked, nurses were stripping people butt naked and sticking things in them and up them. Is this less degrading?



    Are we clear now?? [Quote]

    There are, in fact, perfectly respectful and proper ways of asking, "May I put my finger in your rectum?"
    There is no possible way to say, "Let me know your education level and I'll explain it to you..." without offending. A good rule of thumb is whenever you have to tell someone you don't mean to offend them, what you are saying is probably offensive.
    In my first clinical, all I had to do was assess my patient's ability to communicate. Simple enough, until it dawns on me that I need to ask a gentleman considerably my senior whether he can read and write in English. Notice that simply asking his education level wouldn't necessarily answer the question, since an unfortunate number of high school grads are functionally illiterate, while a surprising number of high school drop-outs are quite well-read. Then too, a fair number of Ph.D.s can't read or write English well.
    So, education level may be one indicator of proficiency, but hardly a guarantee.
    Getting back to the OP, having a BSN is good. In this thread, a few ADN's have made light of it, but I think most see the value of it. The program I attend is 2+2, and for me, that seems ideal, but there's much to be said for getting all of your college (I almost said "all of your education," but that would be wrong) out of the way in one fell swoop. Hopefully, it's clear by now that you don't want to suggest to AD nurses that they aren't "real" nurses--goes double for LPN's, by the way. But education is never wasted.
    Last edit by nursemike? on Jul 18, '04
  6. by   Q.
    Quote from suzy253
    Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.
    Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.
    Well, I'm glad you feel you don't need those skills. Yes, I feel I did and yes, I use them every single day as a nurse and as a human being. And yes, you can acquire those skills with other courses as well; I was merely relating how those "futile" courses are in fact, NOT futile. There is more to life out there than nursing, by the way.

    Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well. It's just not true. There are alot reasons ppl don't chose to the BSN route and you have no need to feel bad for you as you kindly put it.
    Excuse me, but not only did you misquote me but you overintepreted my words. I said I felt that people were missing out on skills. Never once did I express pity for that. What I did feel bad for was people who potentially took those non-nursing courses and felt their time was wasted, both in a financial aspect and a personal one. BIG DIFFERENCE.

    I'm flourishing in my diploma program and would not have chosen any other route. No pity from you please...I insist.

    No pity from me, trust me. I'm glad you feel that your diploma program teaches you everything you need to know. But one thing that I do want to remark on is your dismissive attitude towards 4-years degrees. Every time I hear people call out that BSNs belittle diploma, etc, I hear in the same breath how a BSN education is a waste of time or clinically inferior. Maybe YOU find these skills a waste, but I sure don't. And as an educator, I find them a necessity for nurses.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Last edit by Susy K on Jul 18, '04
  7. by   leslie :-D
    NURSEMIKE!!!

    thank you, thank you and thank you. someone who gets it...
  8. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from Susy K
    May I ask what it is you are basing this opinion on? (that these courses are futile? Have you taken these courses? And you found no value in them whatsoever? If that is true, I feel bad for you).

    I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

    Do you think certain courses are included in curricula so you know more about that certain topic? It isn't. Every single "general ed" course I took, I can relate right back to my current job as a nurse.

    Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

    Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

    What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

    I could go on and on.

    My opinion is if someone wants to learn only nursing courses (which encourage memorizing and recall of facts) then he/she is missing out on learning a whole bunch of skills that I feel are paramount to professional practice.
    a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.

    leslie
  9. by   Q.
    Quote from earle58
    a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.

    leslie
    Of course a BSN program is and should be focused on nursing; afterall it is a major. There are so many nursing credits that are awarded in a BSN program; other credits that are mandated via the university that the nursing school is affiliated with are and should be incorporated into that in order for the university to grant the degree. But I thought you were a proponent of having strictly nursing courses by the nursing department because all other general eds are futile. I disagree, they are not futile. They are valuable and needed. The subjects themselves many people may find "useless" but the skills you learn from them are not. This is what I believe.

    As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.

    Again, I was responding to the notion that people think these courses don't apply to nursing; I believe they do.
  10. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from Susy K

    As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.
    hey susy,

    that's absolutely fine if we disagree, which btw, we do. there's definitely a parallel; as for sitting unsupervised, you would be unsupervised if you were taking an online course; also beyond the repetitive motor skills, strategizing and math are utilizing your mental skills and acuity. sorry, but it's all gen'l ed and that's what it's all about. what if i said my son played chess? just because it's not on the college curriculum, it's not a learning experience. i don't know what makes computers or shakespeare and its' ultimate skills acquired, differs from those i mentioned. and for that matter, people skills, qd experiences, are all gen'l ed if you have your eyes and ears open. the only difference being are the credits you pay for and receive towards your degree.
    have a great day.

    leslie
  11. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from Susy K

    As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.
    hey susy,

    that's absolutely fine if we disagree, which btw, we do. there's definitely a parallel. as for sitting unsupervised, you would be unsupervised if you were taking an online course; also beyond the repetitive motor skills, strategizing and math are utilizing your mental skills and acuity. sorry, but it's all gen'l ed and that's what it's all about. what if i said my son played chess? just because it's not on the college curriculum, it's not a learning experience? i don't know what makes computers or shakespeare and its' ultimate skills acquired, different from those i mentioned. and for that matter, people skills, qd experiences, are all gen'l ed if you have your eyes and ears open. the only difference being are the credits you pay for and receive towards your degree.
    have a great day.

    leslie
    Last edit by leslie :-D on Jul 18, '04
  12. by   Q.
    Yeah, we definitely disagree. I can't draw any comparisons or parallels to an adult taking a college course and a kid playing video games. Just can't. In fact, I can definitely say that college courses don't have a correlation to violence (as video games do!)

    But hey, disagreements make life interesting.
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only? If education ( and well roundedness) is soooo valuable to the profession, then let us recognize the value of an ADN coupled with a prior or new baccalaureate degree, or higher, and quit making it all about BSN! I would LOVE to study another major, say in foreign languages, majoring and minoring in them. I find returning for RN-BSN soooo unsatisfying and would MUCH rather do that. But no, they want us to have BSN only to advance in nursing. How short sighted is that? I think an ADN provides the whole "base" we need to be registered nurses, and would think coupling it with a degree of another discipline more than valuable. Anyone else?

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