What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 15

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More

  1. by   mattsmom81
    [QUOTE=nursemike?]Frankly, I was intrigued by a post on another thread that NY is going to require ADN's and Diploma nurses to get a BSN within 10 years of licensure. [QUOTE]

    Did that go through? If so I am amazed. The day I'm 'required' to go back to school to keep my credential I've EARNED is the day I leave this lousy profession. I have a hard time believing NYS AD and Diploma RN's are just laying down and taking this, and if they have I hope some challenge it in court. .

    It is bad enough the acadermic and monetary hoops experienced RN's must jump through...paying to repeat most of our coursework to get that BSN after we've been actively doing the job for decades. Now this.

    Canada has the best idea by far which is grandfathering. I would support that.
  2. by   RN4NICU
    ooops...info was already posted.
    Last edit by RN4NICU on Jul 16, '04
  3. by   zenman
    Quote from earle58
    education level is on the assessment form, yet if you find it therapeutic to degrade your patient by asking his educational level before you decide on what and how to teach, then all the college degrees in the world cannot teach you certain elements of intelligence.
    Huh! You say the education level is on the assessment form, yet I find it therapeutic to degrade my patient by asking their educational level? Do you realize that something is wrong with the statement you made? If the question is on the form, are you asking the patient or not? Whoever put it on the form must have thought that it was important. My intelligence includes a lot of common sense. I have seen too many patients die or wind up in ICU because they did not understand how to take their medication, for example. I never degrade a patient because I am very familar with therapeutic communication. Yes, I'm educated and I know a hell of a lot. That's why I will continue to assessment patients properly. This type of statement is exactly why I think it is imperative that 4 years of education be the entry level. You have just proved my points better than anyone else!

    and reread my post. i never asked you if teaching was important.
    Here's what you said:
    you question your patients' educational level before teaching them?????????????????????????
    Sorry, I assumed that by your comments.

    i was incredulous that you would ask your patients' their educational level before teaching them. you do collect all pertinent info on admission but you DON'T belittle your patient by questioning their academic abilities before deciding on your approach to teaching. just your daily interaction and 1:1 with them should lead you in the right direction.
    With the appropriate level of education, you will have the ability to ask people their educational level in an appropriate manner. I've never had anyone object. Again, their life depends on it.

    furthermore one can possess a wealth of knowledge and degrees, but still lack 'intelligence'. i am very supportive of all who want to better themselves....but i do not respond well to condescending attitudes very well.
    please, save it for those that give a damn.
    You are using defense mechanisms. I hope you realize that. This is not about attacking anyone. You make of it what you wish. I'll tell you what though. I used to do consulting for a group of malpractice lawyers...making sure that they were going after the right person. I was able to get them off a lot of nurses and onto some other person. However, I can tell you that if they had you on the stand, you would be ripped to shreds if your patient was injured or died because you thought it degrading to ask their educational level (among other things) prior to planning. You better listen and you better wise up really quick, not only for yourself but for your patients. They deserve it!
  4. by   zenman
    Posted by suzy253: I have all of the above in my diploma program.
    Let me know the website for your school. I'd like to see the curriculum. How does your 3 year program compare to a 4 year program?
  5. by   zenman
    Quote from nursemike?
    Now, I learned carpentry the way Jesus did--from my Dad.
    Jesus learned carpentry from your Dad? Your Dad must have been pretty dang good!! I had two psych patients once who both thought they were Jesus. Had to keep them apart because when they were together they would fight over who was the "real" Jesus!
  6. by   zenman
    Holy, Moses! A 6 inch centipede just walked across my bare foot! I hate those critters! Actually, kind of tickled!

    Anyway, just a recap of my position:

    1. We should have one entry level. Most professions do. Two year grads in some health care fields, OT and PT assistants, for example, are supervised by the "professional" OT and PTs.

    2. The ADN program was created by Mildred Montag 50 plus years ago because of a nursing shortage. Did it solve the nursing shortage? No, it created more problems and was a shorted sighted solution. Shortening (and lessening the skill level) the educational process of a profession is not very bright. Perhaps we should cut the process for becoming an engineer in half. Let's cut medical school while we are at it!

    Because of Mildred and her creation, there will be even more of a difficulty establishing the BSN as entry level unless the law makers demand it. ADN grads voting on the issue would be like asking alcoholics to vote on prohibition!

    3. It's not about individuals, whether they are gifted or lacking in brain cells. The "masses" need to have an entry level equal to other professions, especially since you must consider that we work with living human beings. The fact that you became the hospital CEO with one year of college is not an issue. The "masses" will not have the same ability. I've also seen a few dumb physicians; however they are not the norm.

    4. Comparing the degree programs I listed earlier show a distinct difference between the ADN and BSN programs. While book learning is not everything, "knowledge" and the ability to apply it, is. The "knowledge" comes first. I'm not the one who came up with "Knowledge is Power!" slogan!

    5. The BSN is needed for clinical, not just management positions. Patients are sicker now and the healthcare system is more complex.

    6. The fact that you have more clinical before you graduate than members of other degree programs is also not an issue. It just means that they have more book learning and when they reach the same clinical skill level as you, they will be ahead. Clinical is OJT and you will get plenty of it when you graduate.

    7. As one poster pointed out, till you've been there, you don't know what it is like to have a BSN if you are an ADN grad. An ADN might argue that 2 years is enough. However, upon completing the BSN, they usually have a different opinion. I've always thought it fascinating that the more books (even non nursing) I read, the more I knew! Even a course in Canoeing can teach you to relax and go "with the flow." A course in basket weaving can give you more manual dexterity in the work place. A course in military strategy will help you in your daily battles, "Knowledge rules."

    8. An RN is an RN only by licensure, which is a permit to do a certain activity. Most of us have a driver's licensure!

    9. As I mentioned earlier, there is a liability issue. If I was a lawyer and had a 2 yr grad on the stand, I'd certainly exploit the educational aspect.

    10. Anyone can act in a "professional" manner but it does not make one a professional.

    11. If the BSN becomes the entry level, I think there should be a means where one can obtain the degree with the least hassle and expense.

    12. The fact that BSN grads may not be paid more or that all grads do the same work as well as many other issues, is not a reflection on the value of the degree but a reflection on how screwed up our profession is!

    13. The degree is not the person.

    The centipede came back...and has met his maker!
  7. by   vanrn
    As the question deteriorates into the dreaded BSN/ADN debate, my .02...
    The BSN will give the OP more future job choices...Personally, I am looking into a position now within the local school system, working with 'at-risk' children. This would not be a possibility with an ADN but with the BSN I have a shot. As with other 4-year degrees, the BSN can often be utilized outside its original course of study. This is the real value of a BS degree in any field. Within nursing, I refuse to enter the fray of BSN/ADN one-upmanship. One observation though, where else but in nursing do its professionals feel compelled to wear their degrees on their badges? RN,BSN,MSN,CEN, etc. My doctor, a specialist in ortho work, has a number of advanced degrees. Does he wear them on his badge and would the public understand them if he did?
  8. by   HisHands
    In my humble opinion, if an ADN nursing student sits down to take the NCLEX-RN exam next to a BSN student, and is fully qualified to pass the exam and be recognized and certified by the state, then they should be recognized for that knowledge base. Think about it. What is the real major difference between the two degrees. In MI at the school I'm at, the BSN degree has a few more core classes, but mostly it's 40 credits of gen ed's. I'm sorry, but when is the last time you saw a nurse reciting Shakespeare as he/she was suctioning? My point... a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.

    ~Brightest Blessings~
    HisHands
  9. by   Altra
    Quote from zenman
    9. As I mentioned earlier, there is a liability issue. If I was a lawyer and had a 2 yr grad on the stand, I'd certainly exploit the educational aspect.
    I had zero interest in joining this fray, but this particular assertion stuck out at me. So I ran it by a judge that I know. She assures me that in her courtroom, once it had been established that an RN defendant held valid licensure, any line of questioning regarding how the RN became licensed vs. how other nurses become licensed would be quickly squashed, because the defendant had been licensed by the state in accordance with policies established by the state. She tells me that medical malpractice cases tend to hinge on specific actions undertaken by defendants, whether or not defendants were licensed or certified to complete the tasks in question (scope of practice), and whether or not defendants followed their institution's policies and procedures.
  10. by   ERANGEL
    Well............first of all that is very wonderful that you did get a BSN, and I know that you worked very very hard to obtain it. I don't really know why the pay is not different for as Associate Degree but I do understand that there are some hospitals that do pay the difference. Some people believe that the difference is that it took some people two years and others four years to learn the same thing because the same exact test is taken to become a registered nurse. Go figure. Then on the other hand, some people think that you must have a BSN to be in administation. Untrue. I don't have a BSN and I have been in administration for the past 10 years. I live in Houston and there are alot of colleges here where a higher degree can be obtained if so desired.



    Quote from doodlebug914
    I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an 'exit' type of exam that we have to pass before taking our boards. I'm feeling down about not being able to pass and have this huge fear that I am not going to pass my boards!

    Amidst my fear, I am questioning taking a role as an RN on floor nursing. It seems like most of the RN's on my floor have an associates degree, and I am questioning if I should be doing something different since I have my bachelor's? The pay is the same for an Assoc. or BSN, which doesn't make any sense to me. Just wondering what else is available that I might not be looking for, or what your opinions are!?

    Another BSN student who just graduated as well was speaking with me, and said she wonders if the Assoc. degree RN's laugh thinking that we have wasted our time getting our BSN when we get the same pay/same responsibilities. Is this a big issue?

    Thanks!
    Miranda
  11. by   suzy253
    Quote from HisHands
    In my humble opinion, if an ADN nursing student sits down to take the NCLEX-RN exam next to a BSN student, and is fully qualified to pass the exam and be recognized and certified by the state, then they should be recognized for that knowledge base. Think about it. What is the real major difference between the two degrees. In MI at the school I'm at, the BSN degree has a few more core classes, but mostly it's 40 credits of gen ed's. I'm sorry, but when is the last time you saw a nurse reciting Shakespeare as he/she was suctioning? My point... a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.

    ~Brightest Blessings~
    HisHands
    too true!
  12. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from zenman
    Huh! You say the education level is on the assessment form, yet I find it therapeutic to degrade my patient by asking their educational level? Do you realize that something is wrong with the statement you made? If the question is on the form, are you asking the patient or not? Whoever put it on the form must have thought that it was important. My intelligence includes a lot of common sense. I have seen too many patients die or wind up in ICU because they did not understand how to take their medication, for example. I never degrade a patient because I am very familar with therapeutic communication. Yes, I'm educated and I know a hell of a lot. That's why I will continue to assessment patients properly. This type of statement is exactly why I think it is imperative that 4 years of education be the entry level. You have just proved my points better than anyone else!

    ZENMAN , w/all due respect, you're just not getting it. let me try to make you understand. when someone is collecting various information on admission, it is NOT the same as asking your pt. their educational level before you decide on how you're going to teach them. if you cannot see the difference, then all the degrees in the world just can't teach you some things. you also can be proficient in your discharge teaching yet many pts. return to the hospitals secondary to noncompliance, and seldom it's because of not understanding their instructions. it is typically a host of other etiologies.

    if you are indeed familiar w/therapeutic communication, it would behoove you to exercise it on this board, rather than attempting to belittle your colleagues with your very weak references, your innuendos and LOL emoticons. furthermore, your 1-15 list was bogus and nonverifiable. very suspect.

    and lastly , it is not defensiveness but impatience that i choose to sever communication in this thread w/you. you have definitely proven that if you are degreed, then there are certain elements of human interaction and intelligence that cannot be taught. (posted erroneously, my part of post ends here. leslie)

    You are using defense mechanisms. I hope you realize that. This is not about attacking anyone. You make of it what you wish. I'll tell you what though. I used to do consulting for a group of malpractice lawyers...making sure that they were going after the right person. I was able to get them off a lot of nurses and onto some other person. However, I can tell you that if they had you on the stand, you would be ripped to shreds if your patient was injured or died because you thought it degrading to ask their educational level (among other things) prior to planning. You better listen and you better wise up really quick, not only for yourself but for your patients. They deserve it!
    funny, i've given depositions, been on trials and had a few trial attorneys suggest i pursue law school. and no one ever asked me my educational level but rather my licensure. look at the astronomical rate of nosocomial, PREVENTABLE infections, with much of the rate attributed to md's not acknowledging the urgency of handwashing. we all know that.

    i've met many people in my life who were total idiots or totally inspirational. degrees or lack thereof had little to do with it.

    bottom line, bsns are certainly a noble way to go but unless you're pursuing managerial, at this time it is not mandatory,nor is a reflection of any nurse's capabilities. your preaching and antagonizing hasn't convinced me one iota...i think we need to work on your therapeutic communication.
    Last edit by leslie :-D on Jul 17, '04
  13. by   Q.
    Quote from HisHands
    In my humble opinion, if an ADN nursing student sits down to take the NCLEX-RN exam next to a BSN student, and is fully qualified to pass the exam and be recognized and certified by the state, then they should be recognized for that knowledge base. Think about it. What is the real major difference between the two degrees. In MI at the school I'm at, the BSN degree has a few more core classes, but mostly it's 40 credits of gen ed's. I'm sorry, but when is the last time you saw a nurse reciting Shakespeare as he/she was suctioning? My point... a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.

    ~Brightest Blessings~
    HisHands
    My opinion: people use the NCLEX as the be-all-end-all of a nurse. NCLEX is a standardized test (which many nursing schools prepare you for - ie: teaching to the test) and represents novice safe practice. The NCLEX is the bare-minimum needed to practice. I certainly don't hold it up as any sort of benchmark.

    Secondly, from an educator's point of view, a bachelor's degree is much more than reciting Shakespeare for heaven's sake. And I fully disagree that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Just like a cardiologist is not an obstetrician is not a radiologist. Why do we generalize nurses but not physicians?

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