What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 13

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More

  1. by   zenman
    Posted by earle58: again, please provide these references. seeing is believing.
    There is a lot more out there:

    http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-3/value.htm

    http://www.dfes.gov.uk/economicbenefit/contents.shtml

    http://education.umn/pepsc/products/RowleyHurtado.pdf
  2. by   MellowOne
    Well, allow a poor little ADN to throw in his 2 cents worth.

    In my short 9 years as a nurse, I've worked the units, and been clinical manager on a cardio-thoracic ICU. I'm currently house administrator for a large urban hospital, and have just started working part time as a flight nurse. I hope to go full time with the flight nurse gig before too long. I've done this with my ADN because of my experience and the relationships that I've developed in my facility.

    It's true that many places like to see the BSN, particularly government and teaching institutions. At these facilities, you won't get into management without at least a BSN. On the other side, at most other facilities folks are far more concerned with your work experience than your degree.

    I once went into an RN/BSN program. In the second semester, there was a class called "Clinical Decision Making II." It was a 6 credit hour class consisting of all RN's with a significant clinical component. I was really looking forward to this class, hoping to increase my clinical skills.

    Well, we did such clinically intense things as spend 2 hours in class meditating. We did Yoga, studied music therapy, spino-sacral therapy, and accupuncture/pressure. We had a class in Feng Shui. I am now officially educated in how to ruffle a persons energy field. I got halfway through Depak Chopra's book on healing at the sub-atomic level when I couldn't take it any more. I went to the assistant dean, and explained why I was leaving the program.

    There are nurses of all levels of education who are outstanding, and nurses of all levels of education who are idiots. I fully intend to go ahead and get my BSN still, simply because flight nurses are expected to advance our education.

    As far as BSN's wasting their time working the floor... uh, no. Working the floors and the units is what nursing is all about. As house administrator, I still work extra shifts on the floors and units to maintain skills and show staff that we'll get down into the trenches with them. It does a staff good to have their supervisors helping them to clean up poop.

    Finally, management sucks. I can't count the number of people who've told me, "I wouldn't have your job for anything." Once I'm out of this House Administrator position and flying full time, I'll never go into management again. Being in management sucks. Have I mentioned that I don't like management?

    Be well...

    The Mellow One
  3. by   jeepgirl
    Quote from zenman
    You are aware that I don't back down from any question. It's just sad that some can't realize the answers. If you restate your particular question and give me your educational level, I'll try to explain it to you. I'm not trying to offend you, but one reason you ask patients their educational level is so you know how to respond to their level when providing patient teaching, for example.
    whoa whoa whoa
    Okay. I've had PH. D patients who don't understand a darn thing any doctor or nurse teaches or tells them on the med surg floor. On the other hand, I've had five year olds that can be taught just about anything and return demonstrate the task perfectly.
    I've had PH. D's who can't handle bottle feeding, diapering or umbilical stump care with a perfectly health baby... and I've had 15 year olds with very sick babies do the exact opposite and act like they are old pro's at doing very complicated tasks - dressing changes, stoma care, med management, ect.

    While your patients education level is important, its not everything. I also think this post was a dig at the person it was directed at, and I think it was very rude.
    Even though it is not how you'd like it to be if you were king of the world, an RN is an RN.
    How long have you been in nursing?
  4. by   jeepgirl
    Quote from zenman
    That list was the results of studies. It's almost sad that I have to explain. Yes, diploma nurses can come out of school and "hit the ground running." That is a "trade" mentality and in many trades "clinical" goes on for 10 years before you are turned loose to function on your own. When ADN and diploma nurses brag about having more clinical, I'm going "oh, no, less knowledge base." It would be better for our profession if there was one professional level equal to other professions. Nurses are infighting all the time and the public remains confused about what a nurse is.
    But doesn't it all even out?

    Less knowledge base for the ADN nurses for some reason - something to do with not having enough art and music classes or something (can't quite figure it out yet... anyway) and possibly maybe some community health stuff... even though in my ADN program it was included.

    Less knowledge base for the BSN nurses - possibly from not being able to learn enough in clinical, for the simple reason that they don't have as much clinical exposure. Because of this, they don't get the hands on experience they need while they are learning "from the book." This can be bad because it could be harder for them to make connections between book and real life - which is what we tend to call "critical thinking".

    Anyway, I think that a lot of ADN grads are stronger and quicker in clinical the first 1 year or so because they can draw on previous experience. But BSN students can be just as good, and they pick up pretty quickly. After that, it all evens out.
  5. by   CSLee3
    Okay, here is another thought......
    Unless you have been an LPN, Then ADN, Then BSN, Then MSN you are really not qualified to speak and assume the different ins and outs of these programs.
    I would have never guessed when I entered LVN school that I would do mental health rotations, alzhiemers conference, rabies lectures, supervision class (yes there is always someone under you) picu, pacu, surgeries, ER, rotated just about everywhere. And in my ADN bridging class (different college), haven't done much I don't already know or have done, SO, it really is the individul program and the faculty that makes it learning happen.
    I cannot be critical of a BSN program because I haven't walked in those shoes. And just because one does have a higher education, doesn't mean they walked in those lower shoes either. Some people stay on a campus for 6-8 years being "enlightened". We all have our strengths and shortcomings, let us appreciate each other. Nurses rock..................Chuck
  6. by   nursemike
    If you look in the Help Wanted ads, a lot of jobs like used car sales prefer a bachelor's degree. Doesn't matter which subject, just a degree. So, really, how much professional recognition does the same level of education as a used car salesman confer? Which is not to say a BSN is useless, although it does sound like some BSN-level courses may be close to useless. But education does not equal professionalism, and it's the appearance of professionalism that earns respect. A BSN does open doors, but any school is just the first step toward being a nurse.
  7. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from jeepgirl

    I also think this post was a dig at the person it was directed at, and I think it was very rude.
    jeepgirl,

    trust me i noticed but refused to respond to the mentality level. i'm quite secure in myself and you will find that people that are secure, do not feel the need to defend themselves. sometimes you just shake your head while looking at the source. thanks.

    leslie
  8. by   Q.
    Quote from jeepgirl
    whoa whoa whoa
    Okay. I've had PH. D patients who don't understand a darn thing any doctor or nurse teaches or tells them on the med surg floor. On the other hand, I've had five year olds that can be taught just about anything and return demonstrate the task perfectly.
    I've had PH. D's who can't handle bottle feeding, diapering or umbilical stump care with a perfectly health baby... and I've had 15 year olds with very sick babies do the exact opposite and act like they are old pro's at doing very complicated tasks - dressing changes, stoma care, med management, ect.

    While your patients education level is important, its not everything.
    Patient education is a very complex task that many nurses I feel take for granted. I agree, educational levels play a part, but certainly aren't the be-all-end-all of how to teach a patient. Clearly, having a patient fully understand the pathophys of his disease condition and having a 5 year old imitate a task (which they do best is imitation!) are not good or equal comparisons anyway.

    Which reminds me, someone here compared a Ph.D in engineering to a ADN in nursing and said they wrote "just as many papers" as a grad student. Again, not even the same comparison. I wrote far more papers in my BSN program than I have in my MSN program; I am writing only ONE: my THESIS. Which I can tell you is unlike any other paper I have written before. It's not all about quantity.
  9. by   jenrninmi
    Quote from Hellllllo Nurse
    Here is a poem that is very approprate for the ADN vs BSN debate, union nurses vs nurses against unions, day shift vs nights shift, etc. Maybe even republican nurses vs democrat nurses?



    *Seven Nurses*


    Seven nurses trapped by happenstance
    In the dark and bitter cold.
    Each one possessed a stick of wood,
    Or so the story's told.
    Their dying fire in need of logs,
    The first nurse held hers tight.
    For on the faces around the fire,
    Was that's a nurse who works at night.
    The night nurse looking cross the way,
    Saw one not of her shift,
    And wouldn't give her stick of wood
    To give the fire a lift.
    The third nurse noticed in the group
    One that wanted to unionize,
    "Why should I use my stick of wood
    To warm someone I despise?"
    The management nurse sat in deep thought,
    (Her mind not on the fire)
    Of ways to stretch this small staff
    Without having to hire.
    The floor nurse's face bespoke revenge
    as the fire passed from sight,
    For all she saw in her stick of wood
    Was a chance for spite tonight.
    The nurse with the BSN sat and watched
    As the fire began to dim.
    "My degree is more important than his
    I'll put mine in after him."
    The last nurse of this forlorn group
    Did naught except for gain
    Giving only to those who gave
    Was how he played the game.
    The logs held tight in death's still hands
    Was proof of how we sin.
    They didn't die from the cold without,
    They died from--THE COLD WITHIN
    ]
    Whoa! Good poem...gave me chills for some reason...I kept thinking, "that won't be me..."
  10. by   zenman
    Posted by MellowOne: In my short 9 years as a nurse, I've worked the units, and been clinical manager on a cardio-thoracic ICU. I'm currently house administrator for a large urban hospital, and have just started working part time as a flight nurse. I hope to go full time with the flight nurse gig before too long. I've done this with my ADN because of my experience and the relationships that I've developed in my facility.
    Remember that it's not about what talented individuals can do.

    I once went into an RN/BSN program. In the second semester, there was a class called "Clinical Decision Making II." It was a 6 credit hour class consisting of all RN's with a significant clinical component. I was really looking forward to this class, hoping to increase my clinical skills.

    Well, we did such clinically intense things as spend 2 hours in class meditating. We did Yoga, studied music therapy, spino-sacral therapy, and accupuncture/pressure. We had a class in Feng Shui. I am now officially educated in how to ruffle a persons energy field. I got halfway through Depak Chopra's book on healing at the sub-atomic level when I couldn't take it any more. I went to the assistant dean, and explained why I was leaving the program.
    Let me explain why you should have stayed. More out-of-pocket (cash)money is spend on alternative therapies than on western medicine and more visits are made to alternative medicine practitioners than western physicians. As a Zen Shiatsu therapist, the majority of my happy clients are "failures" of western medicine. I still have a standing challenge for any physician to parachute naked with me into any tribal village and see who can do the most good.

    There are nurses of all levels of education who are outstanding, and nurses of all levels of education who are idiots. I fully intend to go ahead and get my BSN still, simply because flight nurses are expected to advance our education.
    Very true.

    As far as BSN's wasting their time working the floor... uh, no. Working the floors and the units is what nursing is all about. As house administrator, I still work extra shifts on the floors and units to maintain skills and show staff that we'll get down into the trenches with them. It does a staff good to have their supervisors helping them to clean up poop.
    Way to go!!

    Finally, management sucks. I can't count the number of people who've told me, "I wouldn't have your job for anything." Once I'm out of this House Administrator position and flying full time, I'll never go into management again. Being in management sucks. Have I mentioned that I don't like management?
    So...you really don't like hospital management?? As I've said before, hospital management is not known as a hotbed of creativity!

    By the way, I'm a black belt in Hapkido. Also do Taiji. Also an ex-helicopter flight nurse...Aerospatiale Dauphin...flying in (or should I say over) the Gulf of Mexico picking up people off oil rigs and boats. Lost a few heartbeats on some missions. At the time, 1980s, we had better nav gear than the CG...so who went out when it was too bad for them to fly...us!
  11. by   suzy253
    Quote from zenman
    That list was the results of studies. It's almost sad that I have to explain. Yes, diploma nurses can come out of school and "hit the ground running." That is a "trade" mentality and in many trades "clinical" goes on for 10 years before you are turned loose to function on your own. When ADN and diploma nurses brag about having more clinical, I'm going "oh, no, less knowledge base." It would be better for our profession if there was one professional level equal to other professions. Nurses are infighting all the time and the public remains confused about what a nurse is.
    Can delusions of grandeur be treated by medications???:stone
  12. by   zenman
    Posted by jeepgirl: whoa whoa whoa
    Okay. I've had PH. D patients who don't understand a darn thing any doctor or nurse teaches or tells them on the med surg floor. On the other hand, I've had five year olds that can be taught just about anything and return demonstrate the task perfectly.
    I've had PH. D's who can't handle bottle feeding, diapering or umbilical stump care with a perfectly health baby... and I've had 15 year olds with very sick babies do the exact opposite and act like they are old pro's at doing very complicated tasks - dressing changes, stoma care, med management, ect.
    These are all people outside the Bell curve!!

    While your patients education level is important, its not everything. I also think this post was a dig at the person it was directed at, and I think it was very rude.
    I'm a fan of "Reality Therapy" so yes I'll challenge people. However, do not make any assumptions about me or when assessing your patients.

    Even though it is not how you'd like it to be if you were king of the world, an RN is an RN.
    I don't want to be King. "All" RNs are RNs by vertue of licensure. Look up "licensure" please. A person who has attended 2 years of college has more knowledge than one who has attended 1 year. A person who has attended 3 years has more knowledge than one who has attended 2 years. A person who has 4 years has more knowledge than one who has attended 3 years. You can't change that fact. I'm not talking about "individuals" as mentioned in other posts. It's about the majority and it's about being in the demanding, complex, health care system. Let's cut the educational standards for all professions...that would then make us even!

    How long have you been in nursing?
    Really want to know? 35 in health care; 30 years as a RN.
  13. by   zenman
    Posted by jeepgirl:But doesn't it all even out?
    A person with 2 years of liberal arts does not even out to a person with 4 years of liberal arts. Same for nursing.

    Less knowledge base for the ADN nurses for some reason - something to do with not having enough art and music classes or something (can't quite figure it out yet... anyway) and possibly maybe some community health stuff... even though in my ADN program it was included.
    You are aware that there is a reason for art, music, etc, etc. aren't you? Looking at the NSU school I mentioned earlier, the BSN people have 122 hours compared to 71 hours for the ADN. I might be wrong, but in every course I've taken, I've learned something new. In the NSU program, I see that the BSN has the following stand along courses that the ADN does not have.

    1.Nutrition
    2. Cultural & Ethical Influences (that a big one in today's world)
    3. Health Assessment
    4. Pharmalogy
    5. Health Info Management
    6. An additional psych course
    7. Economics
    8. Research in Health Care
    9. Nursing Management
    10. Complex Nursing Care
    12. Healthcare Management
    13. Community Health Nursing

    This was a quick glance but looks like the ADN grads at this school need to continue their education at some point!

    Less knowledge base for the BSN nurses - possibly from not being able to learn enough in clinical, for the simple reason that they don't have as much clinical exposure. Because of this, they don't get the hands on experience they need while they are learning "from the book." This can be bad because it could be harder for them to make connections between book and real life - which is what we tend to call "critical thinking".
    It's more "application" than critical thinking, but you do have a point. But don't throw out "book learning" just for OJT which will come anyway.

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