Too Many Nurses? - page 2

Right now, they say there is a Nursing shortage. I've read articles that say most states are scrambling to create more schools and more openings in the current schools to alleviate the shortage. It... Read More

  1. by   rasmu
    Quote from LilStudent
    Right now, they say there is a Nursing shortage. I've read articles that say most states are scrambling to create more schools and more openings in the current schools to alleviate the shortage. It seems that alot of people are currently drawn to Nursing as a career. I think this might be because the salaries seem very appealing from the outside looking in and that there would be lots of job security. (Just my opinion)
    I'm aware of the history of the job market in nursing over the past 20 - 25 years, and I am aware that every time in the past that somebody warned about a surplus of nurses, the surplus never developed. But this time things may be different. The current debate in the Presidential campaign about the loss of American jobs is not just a bunch of obscure rhetoric. Real Americans are losing jobs in large numbers, because it is beneficial for organizations to get inexpensive, obedient labor from overseas. Real people are getting hurt here. I am one of them. At age 39 I am going back to college full time to train to become a registered nurse. I had to do this because all of the jobs in my previous occupation, computer programming have been destroyed. They are gone. For the past 20 - 25 years there were excellent job opportunities in the computer field. Now all of those opportunites are going to people from countries such as India.

    I'm not too far removed from the debate on what the Statue of Liberty means, as I have Grandparents who immigrated to this country from Europe. But what we are talking about here are people being sponsered by organizations and being brought over in large numbers on work visas to replace Americans. Large, multi-national corporations are sponsering the immigration. I think there are some differences between the world my Grandparents lived in, and the world today.

    As far as situation in nursing goes, I view the possibility that foreign placement firms will flood the U.S. job market with foreign nurses as the single biggest threat to my new career. And I can tell you one thing - I'm going to be active in organizations like the ANA and the unions to make sure I don't have a second career that is destroyed.

    As far as nurses from countries from Africa goes, I'm sure they are fine people and have aspirations. I don't have any personal animus towards them. But, of course, I remember back in 2002, when I was working as a computer programmer at a small company in Vermont and my employer brought in a programmer from India on a work visa. I liked the fellow, and had a lot of sympathy for his "rags to riches" story, until 3 months later, when I was laid off and they gave the fellow my job. I'm also sure that bringing talent to the U.S. isn't helping to improve the appalling healthcare conditions that exist in the Third World.

    The numbers of foriegn nurses entering the U.S. have not yet reached the level where they are having a large effect on wages, but my warning is - maybe not yet, but nursing is not immune from the forces of globalization and free trade.
    Last edit by rasmu on May 20, '04
  2. by   Havin' A Party!
    Quote from PennyC2000
    ... buttload of retiring nurses...
    Is that a large quantity???

    (Guess it depends on the size of the butt, eh? )
  3. by   heart queen
    I believe it's cyclic. In '92 when I went to school, there was a two year wait list to get in. Only 4.0's then lower were chosen, mind you upstate NY. When I graduated, mind you our economy here was depressed people moving out and beds per capita closing which resulted in a nursing surpluss. I couldn't get a job in even a nursing home in '95. Worked geriatric psyc. untill I was accepted into a "real " hospital.

    Now I'm back home with 9 years experience, the cream of the crop and had the red carpet rolled out, with a pay cut and all. A CCU/MICU with vacancies which accepts new grads. Did I mention the vacancies?

    So In my area,western NY, it is cyclic, yet the compensation is lagging to attract new nurses, they graduate and leave.

    So In my experience, nursing availabiltity waxes and wanes based on how great the need, coupled with the compensation. Right now we aren't fairly compensating, so the need is GREAT. Does this make sense. I'm pretty sure this mimics several north east states.

    Everywhere that hospitals in shortage exist that are not willing to focus on RETENTION, will have a shortage. This should be your first question that you ask in ANY interview.... 'what are you doing to retain your nurses".
  4. by   eltrip
    When I was in school in the '90's, the graduates of '93 were avidly recruited by every hospital in the area. When I graduated in '94, managed care had caused a decrease in positions. I was blessed to have a contract w/ my employer while I was in school.

    My SIL (also an RN) & I started noticing the current shortage in '98. It was present in smaller, rural hospitals at that time...less so in the large teaching hospital where I worked. That, of course, has changed now. Positions are available throughout our region and in a variety of fields. And nurses continue to leave the bedside AND nursing at a continual rate. I don't see any glut in the future. Not at least from where I'm sitting.
  5. by   NP2BE
    I'm not too far removed from the debate on what the Statue of Liberty means, as I have Grandparents who immigrated to this country from Europe. But what we are talking about here are people being sponsered by organizations and being brought over in large numbers on work visas to replace Americans. Large, multi-national corporations are sponsering the immigration. I think there are some differences between the world my Grandparents lived in, and the world today.

    As far as situation in nursing goes, I view the possibility that foreign placement firms will flood the U.S. job market with foreign nurses as the single biggest threat to my new career. And I can tell you one thing - I'm going to be active in organizations like the ANA and the unions to make sure I don't have a second career that is destroyed.

    As far as nurses from countries from Africa goes, I'm sure they are fine people and have aspirations. I don't have any personal animus towards them. But, of course, I remember back in 2002, when I was working as a computer programmer at a small company in Vermont and my employer brought in a programmer from India on a work visa. I liked the fellow, and had a lot of sympathy for his "rags to riches" story, until 3 months later, when I was laid off and they gave the fellow my job. I'm also sure that bringing talent to the U.S. isn't helping to improve the appalling healthcare conditions that exist in the Third World.

    The numbers of foriegn nurses entering the U.S. have not yet reached the level where they are having a large effect on wages, but my warning is - maybe not yet, but nursing is not immune from the forces of globalization and free trade.[/QUOTE]

    I too am starting a career in nursing, and I view imported nurses from the phillipines and africa as huge threat to wages and job security in general. We need to stop this influx while its still a slow leak before it becomes a flood, I dont want to have to go back to school in 10 years to learn how to fix cars or be a plumber.
  6. by   agent
    Quote from NP2BE

    As far as situation in nursing goes, I view the possibility that foreign placement firms will flood the U.S. job market with foreign nurses as the single biggest threat to my new career. And I can tell you one thing - I'm going to be active in organizations like the ANA and the unions to make sure I don't have a second career that is destroyed.

    I'll be there with you.
  7. by   missmercy
    Quote from LarryG
    Is that a large quantity???

    (Guess it depends on the size of the butt, eh? )
    At our house -- HUGE!
  8. by   Dixiedi
    They may not be driving down the RN wages, but they are holding the LPN down in a badpan passing job instead of forcing institutions to see just exactly how competant we are compared to their RNs.
    A new LPN may not be able to pass the NCLEX-RN, but give her/him a few years and she/he can test beside any RN with similar experience.
    This is not to say ALL LPNs can, nor is it to say ALL RNs can hold a candle to ALL LPNs. I'm just saying LPNs are worth far more capable than vast majority of hospitals allow, we are being wasted. Nursing resources are being wasted and in this country that is a damn shame. To think about bringing others in while our own resources are shoved under the carpet is disgraceful.
  9. by   Maggiemay
    With the vast career opportunities for different types of nursing being available, and the truly aging work force (Yes, that would be me) I don't see this happening.

    Enrollment, although currently up is still not enough to replace the number of nurses who are retiring or leaving nursing.

    Although some hospitals don't advertise in the paper, that doesn't mean there isn't vacant positions. Newspaper ads are WAY too expensive and many facilities are choosing not to pay the money every week.

    We need to make nursing seem more fun though, and look at bumping up the salaries to be at least in the same ballpark as Pharmacy, I mean, they count pills and read orders off of papers- we actually have to read the PATIENT- Oh well, that is another story11

    Hey you nurses-----YOU ROCK
  10. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from Nemhain
    Hellllllo Nurse,
    Do you live in the U.S.? If so, what part? I ask because I'll be graduating in less than a year and I plan on moving out of the Northeast and I certainly don't want to move to where there aren't any jobs. :uhoh21:

    a little concerned,
    Nemhain
    i live in the northeast and there are plenty of jobs.
  11. by   IMustBeCrazy
    Yes, there are a lot of people entering nursing schools.

    But...the attrition rate is pretty stiff. In my own class I would estimate that we've lost 30% already, and I'm only halfway through the program. So, just because someone has gotten IN to nursing school doesn't mean that they'll make it THROUGH school. :uhoh21:
  12. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from IMustBeCrazy
    Yes, there are a lot of people entering nursing schools.

    But...the attrition rate is pretty stiff. In my own class I would estimate that we've lost 30% already, and I'm only halfway through the program. So, just because someone has gotten IN to nursing school doesn't mean that they'll make it THROUGH school. :uhoh21:
    As you said, the attrition rate is huge. And those that do make it through (I heard someone say not too long ago that less the 50% graduate and pass the boards but I don't know if that is so.) may not stay any longer than they have to.

    This is yet another point that I believe should made in favor of returning nursing education to the hospitals (NCLEX exams remain needed for licensure). LPN - Diploma RN. Then ADN, BSN, ...
    Less time and money would be wasted on educating nurses who can't make the cut or who can make it but don't want it!

    We need to focus not a creating more schools but in turning out nurses who want to be there (or somewhere in nursing) when they retire. This can not be done in the university. It must be done in the hospital where nursing actually takes place. Where the student will see it and be involved in it everyday.

    I went to a hospital based school and I will never forget A&P. Simple class, yes? NO! In order to fully understand the structure we had to watch autopsies. Well, just once, but I know what the organs look like and classes were so much easier after I saw them. The coroner was great, he pointed out organs and supporting structures even threw a little lecture in to ensure we all understood how the body works. I don't believe any university presented nursing class in A&P could have done a better job. Anyway, I am falling off topic.

    We need to start our nursing carreers at the bedside and work our way to the more complicated bedside and/or away from the bedside step by step. I really believe we would see a rise in the number of nurses who are still nurses when they retire.
  13. by   MickyB-RN
    Everywhere that hospitals in shortage exist that are not willing to focus on RETENTION, will have a shortage>>

    I see this where I live. They'd rather pay agency than try to keep the good nurses they have there.



    Kelly

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