Some questions for all the nurses - page 6

BSN nurses would you be happy with the LPN, RN, BSN etc, if You had something more to show for you degree? What I mean is this . What if when you graduated their was a destiction between a four,two... Read More

  1. by   OBNURSEHEATHER
    Originally posted by mark_LD_RN
    if you would read my other posts on topics similar to this you would see i have nothing against ADN at all and am just sick of hearing this arguement brought up over and over again. one gets very sick of hearing bull**** statements like all BSN have no skills, I had to teach a BSN grade to give IM injection,BSN only have and want management skills YADA, YADA , yada.
    Gee Mark, why are you getting so defensive? Her statements weren't pointed at you Mark, just the BSN's she was talking about in her orientation.

    See Mark, that was the same line you fed WalmartADN and me when you delivered your bull**** generalizations of ADN's.

    You keep telling me to calm down and quit taking offense at your statements. Then why are you? The point here is Mark, this IS an old argument, and we are all tired of it. No matter what the level of education we all have, we will all defend it to our death. Why? Because we ARE proud of it. Perhaps you can see that no amount of smilies would ever compensate for a statement like "you seem to have a classic case of BSN envy." In no way, shape, or form could that ever have been taken as lightly as you say you meant it. It was condescending (as most of your statements are), and it was wrong.

    And as for your last post? How freakin passive-aggressive can you be?

    I anxiously await your smart-a** I-have-to-have-the-last-word comment

    Heather
  2. by   psychomachia
    Ahhh, the ADN vs BSN war has erupted again...

    I'm not here to argue one degree over the other, but only to point out that it will NEVER matter WHAT degree is used for an entry level nurse because politics and/or economics determines our future more than our basic level of education.

    The great debate probably started back in 1965 when the ANA recommended the BSN as the minimum education requirement for "professional" nursing and the AS degree as the minimum for "technical" nursing. Prior to this the debate probably centered on "BSN vs Diploma" since the AS degree/community college programs didn't really begin until the late '50s / early '60s due to...that's right....A NURSING SHORTAGE!! Deja vu?

    In 1978, the ANA stated that by 1985 the minimum education level for entry level nurses should be the BSN and in 1982 the NLN also agreed with the BSN recommendation.

    So why hasn't the BSN as the entry level education recommendation become a reality?

    The women's movement of the '60s and '70s seemed to focus more on women making inroads to male dominated professions rather than supporting those already dominated by women. Thus, little was gained by nurses while "professional" women (doctors, lawyers, etc) saw greater oppportunities.

    One thing nurses did gain during this period was a changing health care system created by Medicare / Medicaid. Hospitals expanded and technology changed along with the nurses role, which created even more of a demand, thereby making the two year degree irreplaceable since nurses needed to be trained quickly.

    The ANA and NLN are organizations that have never "united" nurses as a political force, unlike the AMA has for doctors. Nurses who want to be recognized as "professionals" (the ANA and others who chant the "BSN only" mantra) seem resistant to the concept of unionization and appearing too "blue collar."

    Although the ANA does present itself as a promoter of labor rights, I don't believe it has done as much as other labor unions with regards to labor contracts/negotiations/benefits. And by continuing on the "BSN only" dogma, they are only alienating many of the working nurses who should be joining their ranks. You can bet your next set of dues that most unions don't care about degrees when representing bargaining members.

    Also, there are many community colleges who probably depend on their nursing programs in order to stay open. Although I haven't seen any statistics, I would bet that a nursing program is one of the best money infusers there is for a community college. Don't think for a second they're going to let that be taken away without a fight. Plus, there aren't enough Univerisity programs to absorb all the ADN programs.

    Add to these changes a nursing shortage that probably is here to stay for awhile and will not be solved by past measures (downsizing, UAPs, higher workloads) and you have no choice but to continue the training of nurses in community colleges.

    So, my point is this...it is pointless to argue the merits of one over the other when "it just doesn't matter...it just doesn't matter...it just doesn't matter..." (anybody know what movie that line is from?)

    psychomachia (whose BSN degree hangs on his wall, but not his name tag)
  3. by   mark_LD_RN
    touchy arent we

    i am not trying to be a smart *** as you put it
    like i said the statement was made to her not you, and it was about a specific post. i really don't see ALL my statements as condescending as you think they are.

    yes i will defend my self if pushed to far , i agree it is a old arguement and often ignore them . put occasionally i make the mistake to visit one of these threads and i see the same old S***. just look at my posts with open mind and if you have read them especially in other threads you will see i do not put down ADNS or other nurses. unless provoked that is. i am not trying to get the last word just trying to clarify what you have seemed to misinterpret. as you said before it is often hard to convey the whole intent of a message on a BB.

    must you all ways resort to name calling" smart***"?

    what generalizations are you refering to? I said each has it's good and bad nurses,and not alll adns feel the way she does. that dont seem to be a generalization to me. if it is please explain.
  4. by   OBNURSEHEATHER
    Originally posted by mark_LD_RN
    i am not trying to be a smart *** as you put it
    hey walmart ADN i am all growed up now, I just got got me some new toys i think i will go play
    Yes, very non-smart ***.

    You have absolutely nothing to say to the fact that you are getting just as jumpy and defensive as WalmartADN and I were? You say you get defensive if provoked, do you not see we were doing the same when we were provoked? You won't argue that Mark, because you can't.

    You just keep saying "the statement was made to her not you." Her statements were made to some BSN's in her orientation. Tit for tat. Let it go.

    Maybe you should just go play with your new toys Mark. I bet they'll let you have the one sided arguments you crave.

    Heather
  5. by   Brownms46
    (shields up, Mr. Scott)
  6. by   cguzowski
    Thank you CHEERFULDOER!

    You said it all!

    To be unified and proud in our profession, the argument about BSN vs ADN vs Diploma educated nurses must end. The discrimination via educational requirements to obtain "a plum job" must also be weighed against years of experience and other personal attributes.


    Experience and confidence as well as personal integrity equals professionalism....and this is how we should conduct ourselves on the job...as unified representatives of the greatest profession in the world...nursing.


    Have a great day, all!
  7. by   ckirby
    I considered a BSN program when I started school, but I had three issues and none had to do with money... 1. The closest school to my house was an ADN program. 2. The closest BSN program was(and still is ) on probation for their high failure rate on state boards. & last but most important #3. I have 7 children(6 girls and 1 boy) I would have never made it through a four year program. The ADN was hard enough with all the kids wanting constant attention if my only option was BSN I would never be able to be a nurse and I LOVE nursing.
  8. by   WalMart_ADN
    well said renee
    very well said Heather
    Mark... no comment
  9. by   schrandt
    Additionally, I am more informed about biobehavioral/biological research in nursing & have been exposed to several journals/readings/new ideas. In short, the educational opportunities have made the BSN road worth it. It has exposed me to issues beyond those taught to us in nursing school, and has helped shape future career plans (ie. plans for graduate school/NP route & involvement in research).

    As for the clinical skills, these can be enhanced by working as a nursing assistant. I have done so for 3 months (telemetry, med-surg), and will work in a burn unit for the next year. It is difficult to work while in school, but the skills learned are important & will improve my professionalism & marketablility once I graduate.

    There is more to getting a BSN than many people realize, I think. More doors open, more opportunities are available. Thanks.
    -----------

    Oh you said this so well. I am an ADN grad from 84. The college I attended has turned out very capable nurses able to jump right into the acute care setting and perform procedures very competently. On the flip side, some of the BSN students did fell they were "above" the rest-drove me nuts. They had a lot of difficulty performing technical duties. But I have to admit it didn't take them long . My decision to finish my BSN in order to persue my masters was one that will allow myself to be much more marketable, and like it or not folks, a masters is required in order to teach and hold my administrative positions. Does it make us better? Absolutely not! And regardless of what type of program we attended, we all take the same boards. It doesn't matter what letters you have behind your name, we all practice nursing. In my case, it was a matter of choice. And yes, it will mean a raise for me. Fair? I honestly don't know, but it is nice to be recognized for additional education. But no, it doesn't affect the job I am able to do. As far as the masters person that painted her nails, the employer has a responsibility to evaluate performance and take her to task for that.
    I would like to see some type of cohesiveness among nursing, allowing ALL nurses to belong to state and national organizations regardless of education. No wonder we fight bite and backstab and can't get anywhere when we have to argue over stuff like this. Unless we pull together I don't look for the nursing atmosphere to change anytime soon.
  10. by   schrandt
    biobehavioral/biological research in nursing & have been exposed to several journals/readings/new ideas. In short, the educational opportunities have made the BSN road worth it. It has exposed me to issues beyond those taught to us in nursing school, and has helped shape future career plans (ie. plans for graduate school/NP route & involvement in research).

    will improve my professionalism & marketablility once I graduate.

    There is more to getting a BSN than many people realize, I think. More doors open, more opportunities are available. Thanks.
    -----------

    Oh you said this so well. I am an ADN grad from 84. The college I attended has turned out very capable nurses able to jump right into the acute care setting and perform procedures very competently. On the flip side, some of the BSN students did fell they were "above" the rest-drove me nuts. They had a lot of difficulty performing technical duties. But I have to admit it didn't take them long . My decision to finish my BSN in order to persue my masters was one that will allow myself to be much more marketable, and like it or not folks, a masters is required in order to teach and hold my administrative positions. Does it make us better? Absolutely not! And regardless of what type of program we attended, we all take the same boards. It doesn't matter what letters you have behind your name, we all practice nursing. In my case, it was a matter of choice. And yes, it will mean a raise for me. Fair? I honestly don't know, but it is nice to be recognized for additional education. But no, it doesn't affect the job I am able to do. As far as the masters person that painted her nails, the employer has a responsibility to evaluate performance and take her to task for that.
    I would like to see some type of cohesiveness among nursing, allowing ALL nurses to belong to state and national organizations regardless of education. No wonder we fight bite and backstab and can't get anywhere when we have to argue over stuff like this. Unless we pull together I don't look for the nursing atmosphere to change anytime soon.
  11. by   schrandt
    [[B]Ahhh, the ADN vs BSN war has erupted again...

    The great debate probably started back in 1965 when the ANA recommended the BSN as the minimum education requirement for "professional" nursing and the AS degree as the minimum for "technical" nursing. Prior to this the debate probably centered on "BSN vs Diploma" since the AS degree/community college programs didn't really begin until the late '50s / early '60s due to...that's right....A NURSING SHORTAGE!! Deja vu?

    In 1978, the ANA stated that by 1985 the minimum education level for entry level nurses should be the BSN and in 1982 the NLN also agreed with the BSN recommendation.

    So why hasn't the BSN as the entry level education recommendation become a reality?

    --------------------
    It sounds like I went to the same class you did. Way back in 81 the idea erupted again to make the BSN entry level for RNs. If that had been the case, I'd have never finished. It is a huge time, financial and emotional commitment. I don't think the idea will ever fly. Not with so much being said about the nursing shortage. In addition, aging baby boomers will fill up hospitals and nursing homes in years to come and lots more nurses will be needed. My figures may be wrong but the other day I read where there will be around 200,000 nurses short by the year 2010. Currently, less that 2% of nurses are enrolled in advanded degree courses. So if we need new nurses, then who is going to teach them??
  12. by   salve#1
    BS AS. It makes no difference. As an AS I came out with more skills then anyBSN. If you want it to go into management or advanced degree then fine. But on the floor you are not entitled to anything more then the rest of us!
  13. by   suzielee
    BSCN or 3 and a half year diploma at community college-either way it all leads to becoming a nurse. Everyone has choices on how to get there. The end result is all the same. I agree that only female dominated professions tend to become obsessed with rank and stature. The end result is that we all sit and write the same boards so we obviously have comparible educations. Get over it!

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