Socialized Medicine: The Argument to Support moving forward - page 8

by madwife2002 11,818 Views | 131 Comments Senior Moderator

Many people have a misunderstanding that if the government funds health care then THEY control our health care - a concept which in all reality is impossible. What they do provide is funding for hospitals and any facility that... Read More


  1. 0
    Quote from hypocaffeinemia
    Why do you favor socialized roads and military? Wouldn't less government intervention lead to better roads and militaries as companies could compete in the free market?

    Isn't your support of socialism for roads and militaries but not healthcare a bit of a double standard?
    No my personal belief less government is better, military and an infastructure is a necessary evil. And yes many communities do outsource road building which is good since private industry usually does it better and less expensive.
  2. 0
    I don't see supporting a little government intervention and supporting a little private industry intervention at the same time is problematic. After all, many of us, usually eat more than a one course meal when we do eat. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most of us in the U.S. eat our food on the same plate for our meals. The question for me comes down to this: can we take the best of both worlds and combine them? People on one side say government is the best for us. The other side says private industry is best. As indicated in an earlier posting, I feel that a hybrid system may be a workable solution as long as it puts emphasis on the young and on quality of life. With that said, I feel that because the U.S. is a capitalistic society (not bad depending on where it's taking us), that too much talk is spent on the economics of health care instead of how focusing on reducing acute and chronic disease, encouraging better food choices and exercise, and increasing quality of life will reduce expenditures in this country. We've got to start now getting our young people straight with their body, mind, and spirit by changing our walk and talk in life; we adults set the example. Otherwise, we will lose another one or two generations and we will be right back where we are today: discussing how to get outrageous health and medical costs under control.
  3. 0
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    No my personal belief less government is better, military and an infastructure is a necessary evil. And yes many communities do outsource road building which is good since private industry usually does it better and less expensive.
    A ha!

    "Necessary evil".

    You what that is, right? That's a logical fallacy called special pleading. In my opinion, providing adequate (and not just emergent) healthcare to the everyone is a necessary evil-- that and it's cheaper, too. Outpatient drug and diet management for diabetes is cheaper than the cost of an ER->ICU stay for DKA, for instance.

    As for roads-- all government outsources to private industry. Healthcare in many "socialized" countries is no different. You realize in many (most?) of the first-world countries that healthcare providers and hospitals aren't government employees but instead are private industry, right?

    However, in your roads example: while governments seek out bids for road improvements and maintenance, they still manage it all. Roads aren't wholly owned by private companies. You say it's a necessary evil. I will specially plead my own necessary evils.
  4. 0
    Quote from hypocaffeinemia
    A ha!

    "Necessary evil".

    You what that is, right? That's a logical fallacy called special pleading. In my opinion, providing adequate (and not just emergent) healthcare to the everyone is a necessary evil-- that and it's cheaper, too. Outpatient drug and diet management for diabetes is cheaper than the cost of an ER->ICU stay for DKA, for instance.

    As for roads-- all government outsources to private industry. Healthcare in many "socialized" countries is no different. You realize in many (most?) of the first-world countries that healthcare providers and hospitals aren't government employees but instead are private industry, right?

    However, in your roads example: while governments seek out bids for road improvements and maintenance, they still manage it all. Roads aren't wholly owned by private companies. You say it's a necessary evil. I will specially plead my own necessary evils.
    And I agree to respectfully disagree, today I spent most of the day preparing records for a Medicaid Audit, the charts have already been reviewed and validated through CMS. Now the hospital has to send the records to be re reviewd by the state for quality. We have to hire a programmer to send the information electronically to the state and pay a vendor to submit the data. It is really really sad when the paper work reviewing a case is much longer then the operation. We had to reprogram so we could collect information, to identify patients not only by color of their skin, but nation, so we now can capture not only is someone black, but their ancestors came from Kenya. I don't know how this makes good quality care or efficient. I know if socialized medicine becomes law I have job security, but I don't know if I can say this true for my bedside colleagues.
  5. 0
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    No my personal belief less government is better, military and an infastructure is a necessary evil. And yes many communities do outsource road building which is good since private industry usually does it better and less expensive.
    Yes, the government hires a private company to do the actual construction of the road. If "private industry" and the free market actually built roads on their own, private companies would each decide individually where they felt like putting roads and all roads would be toll roads (and rural communities like mine, with smaller populations, would still have dirt roads because it wouldn't be profitable for private companies to build there).

    However, I question your "better and less expensive" statement, unless you have a source to back it up beyond your personal opinion.
  6. 0
    We had to pay for water connection, the town initially would not give us a price, it would be one price $18K for the town to make the connection.....or $10K if they had to bid it out, since the town could not do the work, we saved $8K. The town had total control over the project.

    I know from local politics my health plan is double the price for town employees, the reason is the union won't allow the town to buy a county health plan (which is cheaper).

    They say all politics is local.
  7. 0
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    And I agree to respectfully disagree, today I spent most of the day preparing records for a Medicaid Audit, the charts have already been reviewed and validated through CMS. Now the hospital has to send the records to be re reviewd by the state for quality. We have to hire a programmer to send the information electronically to the state and pay a vendor to submit the data. It is really really sad when the paper work reviewing a case is much longer then the operation. We had to reprogram so we could collect information, to identify patients not only by color of their skin, but nation, so we now can capture not only is someone black, but their ancestors came from Kenya. I don't know how this makes good quality care or efficient. I know if socialized medicine becomes law I have job security, but I don't know if I can say this true for my bedside colleagues.
    Let me get your argument straight:

    The current government system is paperwork-laden and cumbersome...

    ...therefore there should be no obligation to provide adequate healthcare to all people?

    That's essentially the argument you just made.
  8. 0
    Quote from hypocaffeinemia
    Let me get your argument straight:

    The current government system is paperwork-laden and cumbersome...

    ...therefore there should be no obligation to provide adequate healthcare to all people?

    That's essentially the argument you just made.
    No, I don't think it is government's job to provide healthcare. I don't think it is government's job to provide food, I don't think it is government's job to provide housing.

    There is nothing in the Constitution to provide healthcare. I don't want to pay taxes to support other people health care and I don't want other people making decisions for me.

    The government in my opinion does a lousy job adminstrating any program.
  9. 1
    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08...y5268079.shtml

    Section 431(a) of the bill says that the IRS must divulge taxpayer identity information, including the filing status, the modified adjusted gross income, the number of dependents, and "other information as is prescribed by" regulation. That information will be provided to the new Health Choices Commissioner and state health programs and used to determine who qualifies for "affordability credits."

    Section 245(b)(2)(A) says the IRS must divulge tax return details -- there's no specified limit on what's available or unavailable -- to the Health Choices Commissioner. The purpose, again, is to verify "affordability credits."

    Section 1801(a) says that the Social Security Administration can obtain tax return data on anyone who may be eligible for a "low-income prescription drug subsidy" but has not applied for it.

    So with this government health care plan, you have money in your account that you are using to support your family and you have a large medical bill, the government will decide if you can afford it. If you say you can't they will look at your tax return.
    NurseForChange likes this.
  10. 2
    There are so many problems with this and I don't know where to start!
    Many of you speak of having paid nothing or very little for care but do not know of the actual cost paid. The "low cost" of doctor visits and meds can spiral the costs higher for all of the tax payers involved. The low cost promotes abuse of frequent users. I know this relative that would take her kids to the doctor for hiccups, etc. the first day of symptoms every time because she did not have to pay a co-pay(medicaid). Now she has to pay a $20 co-pay and only takes her kids when necessary. The doctor still collects the $60 for the visit in both scenarios paid by all the tax payers.

    An earlier thread gave a great example of government run programs: post office, VA, medicaid, etc.
    Need I say more? Any government run program has run a muck in inefficiency, poor service, and high costs! The post office used to receive complaints on long waits. The post office remedied this by removing the clocks in the lobbies- great solutions eh? Look at Social Security- see it under FICA on your checks- that's federal income contribution act, a "tax you pay and cannot get back or write off.
    NurseForChange and Ginger's Mom like this.


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