Should nurses have MSNs - page 5

I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer... Read More

  1. by   JMP
    Quote from oldiebutgoodie
    I am finishing my BSN at a supposedly "prestigious" nursing school. The last quarter, I have written papers, done a big project/presentation, attended class, discussed ethics. Oh, did I mention patient contact? Whoops, there wasn't much!

    My son is a medic in the Air Force. He has gotten more skills training in the last few months that I got in 2 years. He wants to be a nurse, and I have recommended he do an ADN program, because he couldn't stand all the busywork a BSN requires.

    Hopefully, I will look back in a year or so and be thankful for my BSN, but right now I am just frustrated that I won't be able to do some basic things at my first job.

    The MSN program requires classes on nursing theory (Martha Rogers and energy fields. What was she smoking back in the 70's?)

    Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??

    Oldiebutgoodie
    It does make a difference where your education is obtained.
    The MSN program I am in is a administrative domain based Masters....they also have clinically based domains, but my preferance is administrative, mostly do the field I want to work in.
    I am in Ontario, Canada and BSN as entry to practice is here, started this year. So a Masters is seen a the next logically step, if you want to leave the bedside. Not everyone does, I work at the bedside and work with many RN's who love it and never want to leave. However, I find myself often having to justify the educational process and why I would bother, etc etc. It seems to be part of the nursing culture to "question" people who want to move up or on, enhance their own natural leadership abilities, persue other domains of practice. Unfortunate part of the nursing world.... it really tears down the profession when others constantly want to "question" your motives.

    Last semester, when I was tired and working full time and doing 4 BSN courses (2 of them clinical placements) a nurse I work with "questioned" me and said" well, I guess you won't be down here with us wiping butts too much longer.... better than that now"....I remained silent at the moment but later, took him aside and told him how disappointed I was in his perspective and how would he like it if I "questioned" him about why after 25 years of nursing he had not taken courses, updated his leadership abilites, etc. He suddenly understood the reverse discrimination faced by many nurses... who just don't want to bother justifying their educational persuits by those who "question" the system constantly wanting to find fault.

    I did a three year diploma RN program, followed by three years of BSN, and now MSN. I worked through the whole process...still work full time in ICU.
    I have not reqetted a minute of it and I am over 45.

    Good luck to all who venture to change the face of nursing. JMP
    Last edit by JMP on Mar 12, '05
  2. by   UM Review RN
    I was going to leave this alone, happy that a even a few people understood my points, which were:

    1. Constantly debating the entry level for nursing is insulting to those of us at the ADN level.

    2. Since none of us has any real say in changing the entry point for the professional nurse, all these types of threads and all the contention that they provoke is like pi**in' in the wind.

    3. Finally, I do not really believe that MSNs lack common sense. If you'd read the postings that were immediately prior to mine, you would see that I was engaging in a little lighthearted sarcasm with another poster. In rereading my post, I realized that it did not stand alone well and could be interpreted as prejudicial and inflammatory--so I then apologised.

    I will (please God) try to have the strength to refrain from posting on these and other useless "debates" from now on as my penance.

    ~Peace~Love~Goodwill to All~
    ~And to all a Good Night~
    Last edit by UM Review RN on Mar 12, '05
  3. by   zenman
    Quote from lifejourney
    Angie,
    I agree that differing educational levels among nurses often divides our profession unnecessarily. Obviously, ADNs and BSNs take the same licensure testing, thus making both groups of nurses equally capable of performing the role of a nurse. Having worked in environments where most of the nurses had ADNs and environments where most nurses had BSNs, I have noticed there are often "insinuations", even blantant derogatory statements made about this issue. It is unfortunate.
    I am on the other side of this issue. I am a BSN trained nurse who has experienced many derogatory statements suggesting I (and others) am deficient because I had "too much book learning" in my BSN program, mostly late at night in discussions at the nurses' station. Most of the individuals who made those statements would have told you that I am a great nurse, having no idea that I have a BSN. As I said before, we are obviously all capable of performing the role of a nurse. But, please don't knock nurses who choose to be educated in this way. It really is more than a couple of extra courses - most of which are not in nursing but to fulfill other requirements for the university. I find that nurses who have chosen to get the BSN or even MSN degrees often have to remain excessively meek regarding their accomplishment to endure the rigors of the educational demands. And, our time and effort to finish these programs is often reduced to us having "a couple of extra courses."
    Many of the threads in this discussion made by ADNs or diploma nurses have mentioned that the reason they haven't gotten a BSN is because of the amount of time and sacrifice that it would take in their lives. On that note, why on earth would anyone bash someone who has made those sacrifices to enhance themselves and ultimately our profession?
    I rarely suggest that I have a BSN in the workplace. If it even comes up, it is not meant to make anyone feel "deficient" or that they might be less of a nurse because they have an ADN or LPN or whatever the case may be. And, it's unfortunate that just because I mention my degree, individuals may automatically make the assumption that I think they are less qualified in some way.
    I appreciate your perspective, and I am sure you are a good nurse. All I ask is that you please try to remember the perspective of the BSNs out there. We catch a lot of flack as well.
    Thanks,
    lifejourney
    Damn, that was great!
  4. by   zenman
    Quote from oldiebutgoodie
    I am finishing my BSN at a supposedly "prestigious" nursing school. The last quarter, I have written papers, done a big project/presentation, attended class, discussed ethics. Oh, did I mention patient contact? Whoops, there wasn't much!
    So would you rather be paying to do patient contact in school(which you will get anyway) or "preparing" to do even better patient care when you get out? Just curious.

    My son is a medic in the Air Force. He has gotten more skills training in the last few months that I got in 2 years. He wants to be a nurse, and I have recommended he do an ADN program, because he couldn't stand all the busywork a BSN requires.
    I was also a medic and learned a lot of skills, such as suturing, minor surgery, etc., all of which I could not do outside the military because we demand better prepared health care professionals for our civilians. I will repeat again for those who have trouble with this concept: if you are seeking technical skills only, consider your local trade school.

    Hopefully, I will look back in a year or so and be thankful for my BSN, but right now I am just frustrated that I won't be able to do some basic things at my first job.
    You're not expected to come out of nursing school with a big "S" on your chest. It will take years before you get comfortable. My wife, a teacher, says it takes 5 years for a new teacher to get it all together. Be patient.

    The MSN program requires classes on nursing theory (Martha Rogers and energy fields. What was she smoking back in the 70's?)
    Energy medicine is really coming into the forefront now! Maybe her smokes got her there quicker! :chuckle

    Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??
    In the 80s I got $95 an hour writing papers for some malpractice attorneys! Writing was good!

    I was really big on learning all the "technical stuff" in nursing which is why I started off in a trauma center. After years of that and other critical care areas, I realized something was missing and got my masters in psych nursing.

    If you are technically proficient in one area, you may be useless in another. But I can walk into any unit confident that I can make a difference in a patient's/family lives without doing anything technical. Remember that doctors are paralyzed when the electricity goes off; do you want to be like them?
  5. by   acutecarenp
    Quote from Angie O'Plasty, RN
    I think in some cases, too much education IS a bad thing, Marie. I mean, look at all the do-nothing talking heads of the ANA.

    I know--heresy.

    But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?
    Well...
    It is clear that the above statement was made totally unencumbered by any forethought. It is just absurd.
  6. by   Tweety
    Quote from lifejourney
    All I ask is that you please try to remember the perspective of the BSNs out there. We catch a lot of flack as well.
    Thanks,
    lifejourney

    Interesting perspective and thanks for sharing. That BSNs are high and mighty arrogant book smart RNs who don't know how to really take care of a patient like an ADN nurse is a myth perpetuated by people with low self-esteem.
  7. by   Tweety
    Quote from Angie O'Plasty, RN
    I was going to leave this alone, happy that a even a few people understood my points, which were:

    1. Constantly debating the entry level for nursing is insulting to those of us at the ADN level.

    2. Since none of us has any real say in changing the entry point for the professional nurse, all these types of threads and all the contention that they provoke is like pi**in' in the wind.

    I will (please God) try to have the strength to refrain from posting on these and other useless "debates" from now on as my penance.

    ~Peace~Love~Goodwill to All~
    ~And to all a Good Night~

    Try as I may, eventually I always have to put my two cents in. So if you can stay out of the debates, your a better person than I am.

    I don't think you speak for all ADNs that we're insulted when someone says the entry level degree for an RN should be a BSN. I'm not insulted by that at all. I've just maintained that if is going to be the case, then they take a different NCLEX than ADN's do, commiserate with their higher education. I don't have to be called an RN, as long as I can keep doing what I'm doing at the bedside and they don't touch my money.

    I think being insulted has to do a lot with the presentations. For instance if someone says "BSN are the only real nurses and ADNs are just techs", then yes, I'm insulted. But if someone says "in order to advance and be recognized and defined as a profression, we need to make the entry level degree for RNs a BSN", then no, that's just an opinion that doesn't insult me a bit.
  8. by   NRSKarenRN
    Closing thread for a cooling off period.

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