Should nurses have MSNs - page 3

I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    You know what; I truly don't get this downing others' educational choices at all. Disdaining MSN's *IS* no better than putting down AD RN's. Suzy is right. Such remarks serve only to incite, insult and anger others, doing nothing at all to solve the problem or unite us.

    Frankly, I am disgusted and sick of seeing/reading on these boards all the rude remarks by others about people's educational choices. I am tired of seeing people just blindly slam others with little or no care about how this makes us feel.

    This (allnurses.com) is the ONLY place I have seen people slam my ADN choice---- and the only place I have seen such a remark about MSN nurses ("ever see an MSN with a grain of common sense"?)

    Really, I am wondering if you would say these same things to our faces, in person? If not , don't do it HERE either!!!!! No one has free license to insult others in the name of debate. End of story!
  2. by   Q.
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    And how much time would it take for that benefit to kick in? What is the solution UNTIL the benefit would kick in? How many people (pts., facilities, nurses, etc.) would suffer as a result??

    But we're suffering now, aren't we?

    Shortages like in nursing wax and wane. The pendulum always swings; it's just a matter of time when. Many nurses who are of the boomer generation I'm sure remember shortages from prior decades.

    Some solutions to the problem until the benefit is realized would be to grandfather existing RNs in, and/or allow them up to 10 years to obtain a BS, of course all while their employer offers tuition reimbursment (and most do).

    The thing is, patient are already suffering. We know from studies that ONE reason why patients fare worse is from poor staffing - but this is not the ONLY factor. Lack of communication, collaboration, teamwork, etc also are factors in why patients suffer. Blaming poor patient outcomes entirely on the nursing shortage just wouldn't be accurate.

    I believe that a BS entry would eliminate much of the in-fighting, would put us on par with other health professionals we work with, would standardize nursing education so that there wouldn't be these discussions on who had more clinical hours inserting foleys, and as a profession we'd be better equipped to command more respect and potentially more pay. With this, the profession could reasonably attract more individuals who are interested in a profession that is also a bachelor's degree.

    I am on one of those individuals. I originally was a biology major looking to become a scientist. I entered college directly out of high school because I knew I wanted a bachelor's degree; I knew that bachelor degree prepared people make up to 30% more annually than those who don't (generally, of course there are exceptions). My only question was what would I major in. If nursing didn't have a BS option, I wouldn't be a nurse. Plain and simple. What was important to me, at that time, was a bachelor's degree first and my major second.
  3. by   mwbeah
    Quote from Angie O'Plasty, RN
    I think in some cases, too much education IS a bad thing, Marie. I mean, look at all the do-nothing talking heads of the ANA.

    I know--heresy.

    But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?
    That quote is an insult and just plain lunacy.

    Mike, CRNA, MSN
  4. by   fergus51
    I do think it would be nice to have things more standardized in terms of nursing education (hours of clinical time, etc), but a masters seems silly to me. You don't need that much time in school to work as a bedside nurse and it's completely impractical. If the US can't make a BSN the minimum, so how on earth could a Masters become the minimum?
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Just for anyone wondering, don't expect the OP to respond now.
  6. by   zenman
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    Two.
    I'm # 3 :chuckle

    Education is good. Did my BSN help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my MSN help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my MBA help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my training as a Zen Shiatsu therapist help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did reading my latest book, "Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain" help my bedside nursing? Yes. Does working out help my bedside nursing? Yes.

    Let us reflect on this.
  7. by   EDValerieRN
    I've not ever posted before, but I feel I should say something. When I looked around for nursing schools, I checked into both ADN and BSN programs. The closest option was BSN, so I applied and got in. During nursing school, I worked as a CNA at a local hospital. All RNs on my floor were ADN nurses. During this time, I learned more from them than I learned in my entire nursing school career.

    In one of my clinical rotations, my instructor was a CNS. She was absolutely brilliant in the ED (where she worked part time), and was amazing with her patients. She is why I am now going into the ED, and I hope to be as good a nurse as both the ADN and MSN nurses that have mentored me. I can't say which is better, because I think it all boils down to common sense and experience. I do know, however, that during my BSN education, it was constantly emphasized that BSN nurses are far better than ADN nurses. Maybe they did this to justify all the money I gave to them because I chose a BSN? Also, where I'm from, there is no difference in BSN or ADN nursing education. Clinical requirements are the same, the only difference is the prerequisites for admission and a research class.

    Thanks to all for the interesting debate. It seems that whatever you are at the time is what's best.
  8. by   begalli
    Quote from EDValerieRN
    . I do know, however, that during my BSN education, it was constantly emphasized that BSN nurses are far better than ADN nurses.
    Hi Valerie, and WELCOME!

    Thanks for your post. In my opinion you have it the nail on it's head!

    Recently, I have been doing some spring cleaning (yep! it's VERY springy here in CA) and I came across some of my assignments from nursing school. I was reading one of my assignments about delegation. We were given a scenario with a group of patients and staff and we had to figure out assignments. Well, as I was reading the set-up for the situation and I came across this statement, "The previous night nurse is the classic nightmare of a lazy individual who leaves immediately after report and states she can not stay to help because overtime is forbidden."

    I COULD NOT BELIEVE what I read! This instructor was ingraining into our impressionable minds that night nurses, classically, were "lazy" and that it should be expected that a nurse stay over off the clock (that's how I read it) to help finish up work!

    To me, nursing students are parallel to children when it comes to how impressionable they are. Kids learn behavior and attitudes of those they look to as role models. Nursing students do as well. I know I did. For these instructors to make statements such as this and like what Valerie posted about BSN superiority is absolutely atrocious.

    The schools need to STOP doing this kind of undermining. It's ridiculous!
  9. by   begalli
    I wanted to add....thank you Valerie for seeing the comments about BSN vs ADN by your school for what they are. Baloney.
    Last edit by begalli on Mar 11, '05
  10. by   UM Review RN
    But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?
    For those of you who took umbrage at my thoughtless remark, I earnestly apologise.

    But in turn, I have a question:

    Was my remark any less insulting than the insinuation of this and similar threads, that ADN preparation for nursing is somehow deficient--and by extension, that all ADN nurses are therefore not as smart or as good as the BSN or MSN-prepared nurses?

    Because that is how it sounds to me, an ADN-prepared nurse. The subtle insult that I somehow don't measure up because I had a couple of courses fewer than other nurses does not lessen its impact just because it's not explicitly stated. The implication is there. It's divisive, it's unnecessary, and it's rude.

    Maybe we all need to think before we post.
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I wont' argue w/you angie. I guess the best things is to ignore people who make ridiculous and ignorant or arrogant statements. If we all did, they would have no audience to gain attention from. We DO know better, after all. Those who don't, we either can try to educate and if they still "don't get it" ignore. The ignore feature was NOT removed upon upgrade of the allnurses website/system, in case anyone forgot. Sometimes, we just can't get shinola from sh** after all.
  12. by   tntrn
    I have yet to be able to tell by looking at any of my coworkers who's got an ASN, ADN, BSN, or MSN (very few MSN's working at the bedside here, though). I certainly wouldn't go that kind of effort, time and money, not to mention the disruption in my private life to do bedside nursing and suffer the abuse nurses are now expected to take on the chin.

    I'm getting so fed up with regulations that require more and more paperwork, none of it having to do with actual nursing and all of it having to do with requirements to prove you did this or did that. At some point, there will no time whatsoever to even say hello to our patients. It's really getting out of hand. That's where I see the "educated" affecting nursing. Placing too much academic "stuff" into what has been historically as a very hands-on, compassionate calling and career. I find the ability to maintain that eroding. It's discouraging at the very least and further fuels my desire to just get out...not because I don't love what I was trained to do, but because it's becoming almost impossible to do it with the current requirements of the powers that be.

    We now have to audit every single chart at discharge regarding about 20 or 25 different things: from did anyone use any of the do not use abbreviations, to smoking cessation lessons. Give me a break. If you've got 3 or 4 discharges (and 3 or 4 admits to replace them), just when is that supposed to get done?

    There's less and less time to actually get to know your patients. When I get a rare shift when that's possible AND if it's a really cool patient/family, it's like a gift. Not the norm anymore to have that luxury...sadly.
  13. by   Q.
    Quote from tntrn
    I
    I'm getting so fed up with regulations that require more and more paperwork, none of it having to do with actual nursing and all of it having to do with requirements to prove you did this or did that. At some point, there will no time whatsoever to even say hello to our patients. It's really getting out of hand. That's where I see the "educated" affecting nursing. Placing too much academic "stuff" into what has been historically as a very hands-on, compassionate calling and career. I find the ability to maintain that eroding. It's discouraging at the very least and further fuels my desire to just get out...not because I don't love what I was trained to do, but because it's becoming almost impossible to do it with the current requirements of the powers that be.

    We now have to audit every single chart at discharge regarding about 20 or 25 different things: from did anyone use any of the do not use abbreviations, to smoking cessation lessons. Give me a break. If you've got 3 or 4 discharges (and 3 or 4 admits to replace them), just when is that supposed to get done?

    There's less and less time to actually get to know your patients. When I get a rare shift when that's possible AND if it's a really cool patient/family, it's like a gift. Not the norm anymore to have that luxury...sadly.
    I can surely sympathize with the excess paperwork, however to place blame on the "educated" for that seems mis-appropriated.

    Many of the reasons for chart audits of the very things you listed (which my organization is doing also) is to comply with federal regulations. Getting to know your patients is great, but even better is providing them with smoking cessation counseling/information and hopefully improving their quality of life ~ leading to a healthy lifestyle and leading to less admits and complications.
    Saying "hello" to your patients is also nice, but so is not using abbreviations which could potentially harm your patient and/or kill them. You may have said hello to them, but now they are suffering potentially serious side effects, injury or death because someone confused "cc" to be zeros and gave a lethal bolus of dopamine.

    So really, these regulations have everything to do with nursing.

    Nursing has to keep up with practice, keep current with research. Simply being altruistic isn't keeping patients alive anymore ~ knowing what works and what doesn't does.

    In my organization we also audited charts for patient education records and found that only 12% of them did an actual literacy assessment of the patient. So these patients were being given educational materials that were at an 8th grade reading level which is much too complex for most patients. You may as well NOT have educated them because they could not read the handouts. The patients were unable to know how to take care of themselves or prevent readmissions. These patients are then labeled as "noncompliant." How is that helping them? Is that nursing? Absolutely not. That kind of lazze-faire attitude blamed on staffing just doesn't sit well with me.

    Nursing as a profession is better than that. And rather than blaming "the educated" for making your life harder and fighting it, look at how it HELPS the very patients you care for.

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