Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ?? - page 3
I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been... Read More
Oct 28, '02Originally posted by adrienurse
Innocent nurses have been shot and kill and you are promoting the use of guns.
Look, it's a tragedy what happened, just as is any major car wreck. We had one about 2 weeks ago, the worst in WI hx, where 10 people were killed in a major pile-up. But that doesn't mean we should outlaw cars. As someone said, we should outlaw stupidity and ignorance, if we could.
So...we'll call a truce. I won't defend my right to a gun if you all don't use this thread to imply that I shouldn't own one. 'K?
Oct 28, '021. It's often said but very true. If you outlaw guns only the non law abiding people will have them. Given that truism it shouldn't be a surprise that both the UK and Australia have experienced significant increases in the rate of murder and violent crime SINCE they instituted harsh gun control laws.
2. Guns often PREVENT crime many times without a shot ever being fired. One study by John Lott presented in his book More Guns Less Crime, statistically demonstrated that states which instituted less gun control in the form of "to carry" gun permits ALSO experieced a DECREASE in violent crime. One could argue for OTHER reasons since correlation doesn't imply causation, BUT there is at least a considerable body of statisical evidence to support the proposition that guns discourage crime.
3. In the United States of America we have a constitution, and contained within that constitution is the Second Amendment. Now, its true that SOME constitutional scholars don't believe that this amendment refers to a PERSONAL right to have firearms (they say that it merely enshrines the right of the states to have militias). However, many others even some who are very liberal on other issues such a Harvard's Lawrence Tribe believe that it does indeed refer to an individual right to bear arms. We often accept that respecting our liberties has a price, sometimes a very high one. Perhaps there is no more fundamental right than that of self protection.
Consider, that in the recent Washington DC case we could have simply cordoned off the entire TRI STATE AREA and conducted house to house searches until the killer/killers were caught. However, we instead chose to respect our fourth amendment rights which requires search warrents in order to conduct searches. Few can argue that Draconian measures are INDEED effective in reducing crime. Witness China, North Korea, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia all of which have succeeded in creating societies with low crime rates. However, the price of such societies is liberty and other draconian measures.
4. Has anyone considered what might have happened in such famous cases and Colunbine, and the Sept 11 attacks if MORE people had lawfully carried guns? Perhaps one of the ARMED teachers at Columbine could have stopped the gunmen before they killed so many. Perhaps, the pilots on that flight over Penn. could have stopped the terrorists (who only had knives) if they had been armed. Perhaps one of the many ARMED patrons in Moscow at the theatre could have stopped the Chechan terrorists had they been afforded the right (or even obligation) to carry weapons and the fifty plus deaths that ensued could have been decreased.
Evil will always find a way to accomplish its desires UNLESS it is stopped by good. All law abiding people should be encouraged to own, learn how to use, and subsequently carry fire arms. I hate to see this story turned into a gun control debate, but I didn't start that line of reasoning.Last edit by Roland on Oct 28, '02
Oct 28, '02I agree with Suzy K. When are we going to start enforcing the myriad of gun laws that are already in place? We legally and responsibly own 6 firearms at this point and fully plan on adding to our collection. We are law abiding citizens who enjoy our 2nd amendment rights. I am sorry, the argument for gun control only empowers the criminals while stripping away another means of protection for the law abiding citizen. I know I am probably offending some people here, and that is not my intent. I just feel so strongly about this issue. Take care and God bless.
Oct 28, '02Gun laws aside(perhaps for another thread?) love and prayers for all the victims ,families, and friends of those who were killed. And let's be careful out there.
Oct 28, '02To all:
My heart goes out to all those affected by this senseless act. I just had a test this morning too and it is stressful, but some of us need to find a different way to channel our stress. Wether it is shooting someone or getting impatient with our families, we need to change the behavior.
I am not getting into the gun debate cause it really doesn't matter to me about what he used. Whether it is a gun, bat, knife, golf club, or bare hands, the fact is that 4 people are dead because someone could not find the help they needed. We need to watch out for these people. Most, but not all, give off some sort of calling sign for help. It could have been something simple that triggered a whole chain of events. I hear he was making threats last month to the school. Maybe they could have enhanced security or just sat down and talked with him about his options. I am not saying they didn't, but mean it in more general terms. I agree with one poster who said that sometimes people in need are attracted to a profession of helping people. Maybe that was the case here. I think nursing and medical schools should institute phsychological testing and face-to-face interviews with prospective students before they enter. Hopefully, only the ones who are truly ready for the stress will be ready for it. I believe it would increase the chances of success for those who are accepted. GPA does not tell the whole story about someone. We have already had some drop from our program because they just had to much going on in their lives. Maybe an interview could have brought that out and with it some suggestions of how to cope.
Anyway, the fact is that two professor's will know longer get to share their gift's and talents with a new group of nurses, which is a tragedy for all of us.
Oct 28, '02Oh my gosh.. This could have sooooo easily been our school... We had a student who had already failed the RN program once, well actually he didn't pass his Catheter check off so he failed himself out... He came back this semester and STILL couldn't do it.. So he got tutored by our resource instructor.. And when he went for his RE-check off, he still failed.. Well he went into the resource teachers office and started yelling and screaming at her, telling her it was her f****** fault that he failed.. Well needless to say they removed him permanently from the program... But we could see him doing something stupid like...
But my prayers definately go out to these people...
And just my opinion on the gun stuff... I agree with Suzy on this one.. We can blame guns all we want.. But I have NEVER seen a gun pull its own trigger... You need a HUMAN to pull the trigger.. And yes there can be VERY responsible gun owners... I own one myself and my husband is a hunter and he owns several... But I keep them locked up and out of reach of small hands...
Oct 28, '02I think we should at least agree that problems like this shooting are multi-factoral. Yes, it is true, in the US it is much easier to have a gun handy, but people that kill people find weapons. True, GUNS kill and that is the purpose for GUNS to KILL. Weapons of death need to be under some kind of control. This is why deadly chemicals --chemicals made for the sole purpose of destruction--are not sold to the general public. This is why you can't go out and build your own nuclear weapon in your back yard--the only purpose for such a weapon is destruction.
Kitchen knives are not weapons until they are weilded as such. Kitchen knives are tools for cooking. Tire irons are tools for fixing a tire -- in the hands of an out of control, rage-crazed person, even a tool becomes a weapon. But let's not be silly and say we must ban ANYthing that can be USED as a weapon.
That is why is problem is multifactoral. Our society is so bent on being sensitive to everything that we have lost the ability to see reality--not everyone wins; not everyone does a good job; sometimes you loose--we need to learn the value of limits and of hearing the word "NO." These people become enraged to hear that there are rules to follow and that not everyone wins all the time--so they make up their mind to destroy that which they think is in the way of their success. They fail to see the forrest for the trees.
I pray for the grieving families that have lost a loved one in such a senseless manner. Le us all pray for peace and tolerance.
Oct 28, '02My heart does go out to the victims families, and to the students who had to witness this horrible act.
DON'T JUMP DOWN MY THROAT ON THIS BUT -- My first thought was if the ones shot were from the nursing program I attended in Tucson and if they were any of my old instructors and my 2nd thought was that if they were I wouldn't be so surprised because of their attitudes. Don't get me wrong, they didn't really DESERVE to be shot, but I sure had those feelings myself towards some of my previous instructors. Did I mean it? Of course not!
Oct 28, '02Australia and Great Britain have the two highest violent crime rates in the industrialized world. The United States did not make the top ten. Feel free to check this link, or do a search on violent crime statistics in G.B and Australia.
Personally, I own several guns, but as I have a brain and I am not crazy, my gun is not for killing. It is for self defense. Period.
Oct 28, '02Yes, you can kill someone with a kitchen knife, but a gun makes it a lot easier. It's harder to dodge a bullet than a nut case with a steak knife.
I agree, what kind of freak brings a knife to exams??? So sad. You aren't safe anywhere anymore.