Shocked At Nurses Actions Tonight - page 4

I work part time at a local SNF / rehab faciliety. On PM and NOC shift it is staffed with 3 or 4 LPNs and one RN charge nurse (tonight it was me). One of our LPNs is a sweet young girl from a very... Read More

  1. by   azhiker96
    Timothy, I edited my post after seeing it could be read two ways. However, I'm also not real hot on the idea that a nurse could refuse to perform valid necessary treatments based on their personal religous beliefs. As you pointed out, some things come with the territory. If I can't stand to clean up feces I probably shouldn't be in nursing. At the very least I should be prepared to do the job every now and then if nobody else is around to cover for me.
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from azhiker96
    Timothy, I edited my post after seeing it could be read two ways. However, I'm also not real hot on the idea that a nurse could refuse to perform valid necessary treatments based on their personal religous beliefs. As you pointed out, some things come with the territory. If I can't stand to clean up feces I probably shouldn't be in nursing. At the very least I should be prepared to do the job every now and then if nobody else is around to cover for me.

    Point well taken. I don't think forcing someone to make a choice against their personal beliefs because it comes with the territory is really a good idea. Obviously if a JW worked in a blood mobile allowances shouldn't be made. Same as if I worked in an abortion clinic and refused to participate, then just fire me. But in the day to day world, I think making allowances can be tolerated. It's not the same as cleaning up poop.


    I still however support zero tolerance for refusing to care for patients because of prejudice beliefs such as the original poster indicated.
  3. by   DeLana_RN
    Quote from TriageRN_34
    ...
    Case in point! I was a new nurse in an ER...and a man came in with a throat laceration. I didn't know how he got it...until another nurse treating a 1 year old came in and told me what my patient had done to her! Apparently my patient raped her...and the father found out and cut his throat!

    Yeah...I honestly was so mortified...so ashamed I would help this person to live it wasn't funny...but did I help? YES. Was I morally against it...yeah, to a point (kinda hard to not help someone with a nasty throat laceration!..but yeah...I was very angry at him!). I held his friggen trache in place till he was sent to the OR! WHY? Because I can NOT judge..but do the best I can for everyone no matter my own feelings!

    DO I regret it ....not really...but part of me is still angry that I helped a horrid person live to do this again! (I have no trust in the justice system).

    Will I do it again..yep!

    I had to live with this...will have to forever! He lived...and if I hear that he ever did this to another...I feel my hands helped in whatever he does next though!
    ...
    You should not feel any guilt even if he reoffends (as we know most child molesters do). You did your duty as a nurse, as any (well, most) of us would. The same is true for doctors and other HCW.

    DeLana
  4. by   nursen_99
    This is pt abandonment. Plain and simple. No need discussing anything else. Now, did anything happen to this embarassment to our profession??????
  5. by   annmariern
    Good god, we all have taken care of people who have done horrific things and if we are lucky we never know it. Even when we do, unless they are abusive etc, in which case,management should step in and lay down the law, never seems to happen but it should. This is pure and simple racism. As for small town mentality, there are no small towns, information technology makes it impossible to be in a bubble for long. She abandoned another human being who needed her care over their assumed religion? You can't do your job professionally, bye bye. This isn't patriotism its bigotry and we should have no place for it in this job. Can't afford the time.
    Last edit by annmariern on Nov 24, '06
  6. by   BSNtobe2009
    She should be more than fired, she absolutely should be reported to the BON and that person needs to get out of the nursing profession.

    Expressing racisim in the work place, to me, is a terminable offense because it is offensive to other employees who may be a member of that race (you can't always tell by looking at someone), or may have a spouse, children, or friends that are a member of that race.

    Free speech does not exist at work, and I believe the hospital would have solid legal grounds to dismiss her.
  7. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    I do NOT agree she should be fired. Were there no alternatives, such as trading patients?

    *** Yes, trading patients would have been an option, IF she had not been 1/2 hour late for work and if she had not insisted on making a scene at the nurses station. Had she been on time and asked me to a private discussion and expressed her desire not to care for this particular patient then yes, trading assingments would have been an option.

    Jehova's Witnesses will not(at least the ones I have worked with) hang blood or blood products. I have seen them trade patients. I have even seen nurses trade if the patient is a certain kind of convicted criminal!(child molester/sex offender)

    *** I suspect that those nurses do not feel the need to make a scene at the nurses station about their limits. They also likely do not accuse their supervisior, CNA and fellow LPN of wanting to "provide aid and comfort to the enemy". This accusation came about simply becuase we even considered providing care to this patient This LPN supervises two CNAs, one of them was the CNA that happend to be at the nurses station.

    ALL of us have our limits...FIRE HER!!!!!!!!!!!:icon_roll Where is YOUR tolerance?!?!?!?!? Yes, we were taught in class we would encounter all types of people/classes/cultures, but, if we could not handle one for whatever reason, trade off and then seek the appropriate action

    *** I think the key words in your above message are "appropriate action".

    so that next time it would not be such an issue...FIRE HER!?!?!?!?!? :angryfire I don't THINK so. Discipline her...OK...Maybe a short suspension...But FIRE HER...NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    *** As I said it is not in my power to fire her. I can only make recomendations to the DON, but my recomendation was for her to be fired.
    See, I think there is a difference in what the nurse in question did versus what you have listed.

    *I would assume a nurse that is a Jehovah Witness and has a religious objection to hanging blood products has a religious reason for doing so against the PROCEDURE not the patient. I am sure this is discussed at an interview, shortly after hiring, and the nurse is consistent....I don't consider this discrimination.

    *Refusing to take care of a criminal that is a child molester or a murderer...that is a factual, real and true statement of the patient, that is against their CRIME, not who they are as a person.

    What this nurse did was make an assumption based on the visual inspection of a patient and then openly voiced her racism along with refusal to care?

    That is what she should get fired for.

    What happens next? Does a nurse have the right to say, "Oh yeah, I'm a member of the KKK and I don't take care of any minorities or Catholics because of <insert stereotype here>".

    Heck no that isn't acceptable!
  8. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from kevagonia
    She is from a small town? How many chromosomes is this one toting? How flinstonian.
    *** BTW the words she used "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" are the exact words a local outspoken leader of a Penticostal church uses to describe anyone who questions America's involvement in Iraq.
    I will also add that until this incident I had pretty high opinion of this LPN and had even written her a letter of recomendation when she applied to nursing school. Until last night I had no idea she held such views. It's also true that we have never had a non-christian as a patient (at least as far as I know).
    I found out that the LPN discovered the patients religion not by talking to him, but by reading the dietary form that describes our patients food preferences. It states right on it "No pork, patient is muslim". I intend to speak to the dietary manager about writing a patients religion on the diet order forms. Usually "No meat on Fridays, patient is Catholic" is whats written on them.
    Last edit by PMFB-RN on Nov 24, '06 : Reason: meant to write "no meat on Fridays" but wrote "no fish on Fridays"
  9. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** BTW the words she used "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" are the exact words a local outspoken leader of a Penticostal church uses to describe anyone who questions America's involvement in Iraq.
    I will also add that until this incident I had pretty high opinion of this LPN and had even written her a letter of recomendation when she applied to nursing school. Until last night I had no idea she held such views. It's also true that we have never had a non-christian as a patient (at least as far as I know).
    I found out that the LPN discovered the patients religion not by talking to him, but by reading the dietary form that describes our patients food preferences. It states right on it "No pork, patient is muslim". I intend to speak to the dietary manager about writing a patients religion on the diet order forms. Usually "No fish on Fridays, patient is Catholic" is whats written on them.
    The day the U.S. is at war 'with Islam' is the day we cease to be the nation we are. In fact, we are at war with fascists that hide behind their perversion of Islam. Their leaders aren't concerned with the religion, but the power that they can invoke perverting it to their own nefarious purposes.

    Believe me, I feel the SAME way about some that call themselves 'Christian', but, I'm not at war with myself. Case in point: the nurse we are discussing. The Christianity I learned was about leading by example and holding an intrinsic value in all of God's creations. Crossing a criminal or treasonous line is all about what somebody DOES, and not who they are. Otherwise, no religion is safe, not even the ability to be free FROM religion.

    Actually, when I joined the military, long ago, I vowed to protect this nation from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. Declaring 'war' on any American is a violation of the SAME Constitutional rights that allow her to hold such an opinion. Her opinions are fully protected by law, her actions to support those opinions are not.

    So, I'd have to say that expressing that attitude itself is being an enemy of the state and allowing her to keep her job is the closer definition of 'giving aid and comfort to the enemy'.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Nov 24, '06
  10. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from BSNtobe2009
    She should be more than fired, she absolutely should be reported to the BON and that person needs to get out of the nursing profession.
    *** I fully intend to report her actions to the BON on Monday. As it is Thanksgiving today I can not do it sooner. The DON and other nursing managment are all off until Monday (though if I felt the need I could call her in). I am in charge of PM shift until Monday. I called the LPN today and informed her that her services would not be required for the rest of the holiday weekend. What will happen when the DON returns on Monday I can't say. It leaves us short staffed but I am more than willing to work the floor for the rest of the weekend.
    It has occured to me that I may in trouble with managment for sending her home for the whole weekend but I have a regular full time job in an ICU and this faciliety is a part time thing for me that I was really doing more as a favor than anything else (though the money is nice).
    I want to thank those that have written in support of my actions. This is a very rural area and all this has taken place on a holiday weekend. I have chosen not to discuss the incident with the day and NOC RNs until AFTER I have discussed it with the DON on Monday. Having a chance to get some support from fellow RNs (and soon to be RNs) has been helpful.
  11. by   HappyNurse82
    Alright, I have read through every post on this topic, and actually came back to Allnurses.com to post a reply.

    I have a very different perspective of this situation. I recently got out of the Army after 2 tours in Iraq (a year long each) and a short stint in Afgan.

    As repulsive as a lot of you may feel her actions were...I can understand and completely relate to this young girl.

    Being muslim means you are of islamic faith, you can't be Catholic and muslim..I believe I saw that posted and wanted to clarify, you can be a Catholic Arab, but not a Muslim Catholic. You can be a hispanic and be Muslim..be white and muslim..be black and muslim..etc etc. A lot of Islamic people are very peaceful people, who find the recent terrorists attacks repulsive to say the least....but let's face it here: that's not the majority. To say otherwise is probably the stupidest..yes stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's not just about 9/11 or the U.S. for that matter that has seen the horrific attacks by the Muslim community.

    I find it hard in Malls, resturants and other public places to treat obvious Muslims (you can tell which are which after you've spent as long as I have with these people) with some amount of respect. Call me whatever you like, I don't care. Surely, other generations of veterans also have the same issues with different demographics of people. These people have claimed Jihad (holy war) against the U.S., or do nurses on allnurses.com not watch CNN, FoxNews, CBS, ABC ???? The facts are undeniable, Muslims on the whole do harbor terrorists, and contribute to terrorists organizations.

    I'm not insulting anybody--even if it appears that way, hear me out, though, I promise I'm making a point.

    Having seen and met different Muslims/Islamics I've came to the conclusion that each is different, and deserves a chance to be heard. There are Christians that I think should be shot point blank in the head...same with Muslims, but it's hard for me to do so, honestly. If I was a young sheltered girl from a small hick-town, which it sounds like that's where she's from, I could only imagine that this would be the reaction. Of the many years of military nursing I've done, our report usually does include pertiant information, especially when religious beliefs could come into play where tx's are concerned. Muslims do have particular needs (religiously)...many of which are unknown because of the sect's the muslims have seperated themselves into. In this case, my report to her would have included the fact that she was caring for a Muslim. I don't think it's racism, because Islam is a faith, not a race. Perhaps how she reacted was inappropriate, but, that'd be a different letter to the DON/BON wouldn't you think ??

    Firing her isn't going to solve jack. All that's going to come of that is fueling her rage furthermore. She should've perhaps taken the conversation elsewhere, I think. But then again...the letter you addressed would be different wouldn't it ?

    I guess, my point is, I'm not sure that I will ever treat a muslim patient. I've been shot at by those *bleeps* as has my husband-several times. Those people and their actions have put my life on the line, taken me away from my child, my husband, put the lives of Americans in Jepordy and killed so many.......how does one forget that ? How are we supposed to turn the blind eye to that ? You can't. We can pick and choose wether or not to help with circ's, hang blood, assist with Abortions...but we can't decide personally that we won't help a person of a demographic who has publically cited that we-Americans-are the enemy ?? Seems a bit odd, doesn't it ?

    In addition to that, remember, she doesn't know how to react to something that she has been taught it is bad. Nursing instructors can tell you till they are blue in the face that you are going to do this that and the other thing, but any experienced nurse will tell you-it's different to actually do it. So this was her flop, her one mistake...she should be reprimanded, but not fired. Being a nurse is a job-doesn't make you God, the ever forgiving, ever understanding, ever perfect individual we all wish we were.

    Before you label me as a bigot/racist whatever the He!! else...my opinions are my opinions, I have them for a reason, you can either agree or disagree, but just because your thoughts aren't mine, doesn't make me wrong.
  12. by   ana tomy
    I just can't believe there is a debate about this at all. I can't imagine someone wanting to be a nurse with prejudice like that. It is embarassing to our profession..it is embarassing as a person for people to behave this way. When we get a patient who is a prisoner(shackled,guards)we are not told what his crime is...I am glad because I don't have time to judge him..not that I would. He came in with his illness not his crime,religion,race or sexual preference. JMO
  13. by   HappyNurse82
    Wanted to add: I'm not saying her actions were right, but I'm not conviced they were wrong either. At least that's my take.

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