Shocked At Nurses Actions Tonight - page 14

I work part time at a local SNF / rehab faciliety. On PM and NOC shift it is staffed with 3 or 4 LPNs and one RN charge nurse (tonight it was me). One of our LPNs is a sweet young girl from a very... Read More

  1. by   Retired R.N.
    Quote from Gennaver
    Oh my goodness,

    What a distressful situation to have to deal with and one that totally surprises me.

    Where there extenuating triggers for this young lady? I mean, did she just lose a loved one fighting in the war possibly?

    I don't understand...

    For what its worth I am waiting to sign my contract and take my oath to assess into the Active Duty Army Nurse Corps and if deployed am sworn to care for all, (regardless of which side of the shooting they were on,). So, her actions are not even those endorsed by Military Nurses.

    It seems that your only course would've been to send her home, lest the institution get in big BIG trouble or accused of supporting her extremist attitude.

    Pity that someone so young has such "extremeist fundamentalist" type of attitudes. Scarey too.
    Gen
    From the OP:

    >Nothing I said to her had any affect on her. She actually got angry at me for trying to explain why this person needs and deserves nurses care.

    I ended up sending her home without pay and doing to work myself. I am only part time at this place and while I supervise LPNs and CNAs I am not their boss with the power to hire and fire. I did write a letter to the DON explaining the stuation and recomending that the LPN be fired. I also intend to inform our state board of nursing of her actions. I had another LPN who heard the whole thing write down what she had heard and submit it to the DON as well. I consider her to have abandoned a patient that she had taken report and accepted responsibility for.

    I understand that she is from a small, all white town and know from previous conversations with her that she has never so much as had a conversation with an african america person or any other minority except the Amish (many in this area).

    She also claims to be a very devout christian and is very involved in her church but I think her attitude is not compatable with nursing.
    >

    So, even knowing all this about the background of the LPN, the charge nurse allowed herself (himself?) to become engaged in a public reprimand of the student. All that would have really been necessary would have been for this RN to take the student into a private room and close the door for a private discussion. This would have given the student an opportunity to think and respond rationally instead of being figuratively backed into a corner in front of other staff members and thereby forcing her to defend her actions.

    Incidentally, just how much does anyone posting to this list know about the religious teachings of this LPN? Not all groups that claim to follow christian principles have the same beliefs. Should a nurse be forced to act against the teachings of his or her religion?
  2. by   CHATSDALE
    agree with op's action on sending nurse home, if she wasn't going to do her work what good would it do for her to stay, also would set a dangerous precedent

    also agree that don [or someone on call ] to inform them about a very unusual situation, supervisors get paid beaucoup salary for being on call 24/7 - if they don't want this they should go back to floor nursing for peasant pay

    did not agree with leaving a the message on answering machine...i would have left a message instructing her to call facility

    happynurse has been through so much that to insult her is gross, i hope that she can accept that it is done with as much prejudice as the lpn in ops statement
  3. by   PANurseRN1
    I believe the OP explained on numerous occasions, and quite amply, that this LPN refused the OP's attempts to move the conversation to a more private setting. What should the OP have done? Whacked the nurse over the head, dragged her into a conference room, then waited til she regained consciousness to resume the discussion? She dealt with the situation to the best of her ability, given the circumstances. Some people are just beyond reason.

    She also explained thoroughly that the nurse was objecting to caring for the pt. based on her prejudices regarding that pt's religion. She also explained that had the nurse gotten to work on time, she would have been willing to accommodate the nurse's bigoted POV with a different assignment, but because the nurse was 1/2 hour late, she could not do so.

    Please find me a state nurses' association that would approve of a nurse not only discriminating against a pt. based on his religion, but also be OK with pt. abandonment, which is what this nurse did.

    Stop referring to her as a student. While she is a student in a BSN program, she is also an LPN...she needs to adhere to the nurse practice act in her state.

    Again, we are not so desperate for nurses that we need to start accommodating racists and bigots. I am all for hanging this nurse out to dry. She is unworthy of the title "nurse."
  4. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from CHATSDALE
    agree with op's action on sending nurse home, if she wasn't going to do her work what good would it do for her to stay, also would set a dangerous precedent

    also agree that don [or someone on call ] to inform them about a very unusual situation, supervisors get paid beaucoup salary for being on call 24/7 - if they don't want this they should go back to floor nursing for peasant pay

    did not agree with leaving a the message on answering machine...i would have left a message instructing her to call facility

    happynurse has been through so much that to insult her is gross, i hope that she can accept that it is done with as much prejudice as the lpn in ops statement
    Being a veteran does not give you a free pass to have racist/bigoted views.
  5. by   DutchgirlRN
    Quote from sharonh, rn
    why not? i think you can safely assume that a person with tattoos admired hitler, i think that by wearing swastikas, that is exactly what they intend to convey.
    no you can not ever safely assume anything about anyone! for centuries before it was appropriated by the nazis, the swastika was a symbol of good luck and prosperity. almost every race, religion and continent honored the swastika. there are even swastikas found in ancient jewish synagogues side-by-side with the star of david.


    "american pilots used it on their planes when they fought for the french in world war one, it was the symbol for the ladies home journal sponsored girls' club and the boy scouts. a town in ontario was named swastika in 1911 because of a lucky gold strike. during world war i, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the american 45th division and on the finnish air force until after world war ii. now, those who use the swastika are largely neo-fascists who do not mind too much about its terrible history." www.dpjs.co.uk/swasticross.html

    what is it that you assume you know about hitler, the swastika and what message it conveys? if you didn't live it you don't really know squat about what went on in regards to hitler and wwii. i'm glad you don't know. i wish i didn't.

    Last edit by DutchgirlRN on Nov 25, '06
  6. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from Retired R.N.

    So, even knowing all this about the background of the LPN, the charge nurse allowed herself (himself?) to become engaged in a public reprimand of the student. All that would have really been necessary would have been for this RN to take the student into a private room and close the door for a private discussion. This would have given the student an opportunity to think and respond rationally instead of being figuratively backed into a corner in front of other staff members and thereby forcing her to defend her actions.

    Incidentally, just how much does anyone posting to this list know about the religious teachings of this LPN? Not all groups that claim to follow christian principles have the same beliefs. Should a nurse be forced to act against the teachings of his or her religion?

    What???? The LPN was irrational from the beginning; why is the OP responsible for her bigoted beliefs? There is no evidence to suggest that the LPN acted the way she did because the OP "backed her into a corner". The fact that it had to be explained to her that discriminating against people of different religions and ethnicities suggests to most that this person was beyond rationality.


    And her religious beliefs are her problem. It has already been discussed that there are some people with beliefs which may hinder them from participating in certain procedures, not certain people. That crosses a different line and if her religion prohibits such a thing, she needs to get out of nursing.
  7. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from DutchgirlRN
    NO you can not ever safely assume anything about anyone! For centuries before it was appropriated by the Nazis, the swastika was a symbol of good luck and prosperity. Almost every race, religion and continent honored the swastika. There are even swastikas found in ancient Jewish synagogues side-by-side with the star of David!

    Just what do you know or assume to know about Hitler and the swastika?


    I hear you Dutchgirl but let's get real here: whatever its initial meaning or its roots, the meaning of the swastika is almost exclusively associated with Nazis and Hitler. and it is NOT unreasonable to assume that a person sporting a swastika is someone I don't want to know. Regardless of its origins, IF you are sporting a swastika in this day and time you are sending a message and that message ain't good luck and best wishes.

    Next thing you'll be telling me that someone wearing a white hood and sheet and lighting a cross in my front yard is just inviting me to roast some marshmallows!
  8. by   PANurseRN1
    Only someone who is incredibly naive or deliberately being dense would try to argue that the swastica is still used as a symbol of luck. It's become universally recognized as the defining symbol of an era of tyranny, hatred, and suffering. Trivializing what that symbol meant to so many is grossly disrespectful to all those who suffered because of its adherents.
  9. by   DutchgirlRN
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Next thing you'll be telling me that someone wearing a white hood and sheet and lighting a cross in my front yard is just inviting me to roast some marshmallows!
    People who use the swastika are supremacists who don't mind the terrible history most closely associated with it.

    I realize that the majority of people think the swastika is totaly about Hitler and the Jews. My point is that while most people think this way it's because they do not know what the h*** they are talking about. It's ignorant drool.

    I think it's safe to say. We are not going to see eye to eye on this matter and we don't have to. We can both have our opinions but we must do it respectfully. As Forest Gump said "That's all I've got to say about that".
    Last edit by DutchgirlRN on Nov 25, '06
  10. by   jill48
    OMG everybody! Settle down! This thread is getting out of hand. Now here is my two cents .
    1. The LPN was wrong .
    2. She did NOT abandon her patient; I know she refused to care for him, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have shown a tiny bit of flexibility and traded with her; at least for the shift.
    3. I don't know if she should have been fired automatically. I think some counseling and probation would have been more effective. Maybe she could have been educated on what she did wrong.
    4. We don't know if her view on Muslims is from what she saw on CNN or if she had a loved one killed or participated in war herself - not that that makes it ok, but she may have some kind of post traumatic stress over this - like a flashback or something.
    5. Some of you are being way to mean:angryfire . I can't recall names, but we got one guy on here telling a veteran that her views are WRONG! Hey buddy, how do you know it's not your views that are wrong? I know how, because none of them are. We all have views and they differ from one another, but that doesn't make yours any more right than hers.
    6. The DON can kiss your butt:gandalf: WHENEVER you decide to call her; that's why she makes the big bucks and that is her job. So don't even feel bad about that crap.
    7. The most important thing is this whole situation is the patient:heartbeat . You said he did not hear what was going on. If the LPN pulled this crap in front of the patient that would have been one thing, but she didn't.
    8. The prejudices of the world are not going to get settled here. The most important thing we can do is educate others to stop the harm that prejudices do. Let's not bite eachother's heads off here , we all want the same thing .
    9. For the original poster of this scary a## thread, boy do I feel sorry for you . You had to deal with a terrible situation. But even if I don't agree with your firing her, I was not there and this was not my problem. I'm sure you did what you thought needed to be done and so I support your decision whatever it may be. Good luck to you and stand behind your decisions. Now here is a hug, hope you feel better.:icon_hug:
  11. by   goody1shoe
    This certainly has been an interesting thread which has gone in many different directions. It has been a lively spirited debate and a good one at that.

    I've kept quiet until now.
    Quote from SharonHRN
    Next thing you'll be telling me that someone wearing a white hood and sheet and lighting a cross in my front yard is just inviting me to roast some marshmallows!
    It couldn't have been easy for Dutch to tell us those things that she did. Those things made my skin crawl and crawl really bad.

    I'm younger than SharonHRN and at my age I understand that the Holocaust was a tragedy that was not in our lifetime and one we cannot ever truely understand. We horror over 9-11-01 and rightfully so. I didn't realize that 6 million Jews were murdered. We don't ever talk about that. It didn't happen on our homeland but it did happen to our fellow American's relatives. 6 million people were murdered. How can anything that's ever happened to a race of people ever compare to that?

    I'm sorry I didn't mean to hijack the thread but I felt obliged to let Dutch know that I feel her pain even though I could never understand it. Her family lived it. She knows.
    Last edit by rn/writer on Nov 26, '06
  12. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from goody1shoe
    This certainly has been an interesting thread which has gone in many different directions. It has been a lively spirited debate and a good one at that.

    I've kept quiet until now.

    It couldn't have been easy for Dutch to tell us those things that she did. Those things made my skin crawl and crawl really bad.

    I'm younger than SharonHRN and at my age I understand that the Holocaust was a tragedy that was not in our lifetime and one we cannot ever truely understand. We horror over 9-11-01 and rightfully so. I didn't realize that 6 million Jews were murdered. We don't ever talk about that. It didn't happen on our homeland but it did happen to our fellow American's relatives. 6 million people were murdered. How can anything that's ever happened to a race of people ever compare to that?

    I'm sorry I didn't mean to hijack the thread but I felt obliged to let Dutch know that I feel her pain even though I could never understand it. Her family lived it. She knows.

    Excuse me??? Do you even understand what the discussion between Dutch and myself is about? You feel her pain, so do I. I understand a human holocaust as well as Dutchgirl, oh yes I do.

    To Dutch: it's obvious that you are not seeing eye to eye because we are not understanding each other. I understand that the swastika has a history other than Hitler and the Nazis. But you yourself admitted that people who use it "are supremacists who don't mind the terrible history most closely associated with it." And THAT is my point exactly.
    Last edit by rn/writer on Nov 26, '06
  13. by   MuddaMia
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Next thing you'll be telling me that someone wearing a white hood and sheet and lighting a cross in my front yard is just inviting me to roast some marshmallows!

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