Seniority - page 3

My faculty had adopted a new policy where seniority doesn't play a factor at all in obtaining new positions. A nurse who has only been there a year has an equal opportunity as a nurse who had been... Read More

  1. by   klone
    Quote from llg
    However ... the system described in the original post does not select the most qualified and best fit for the position either. It picks the most popular.
    I feel like I'm reading a different thread than you. The peer interviewers assign scores to the various candidates. We do that, as well. All candidates are given the same questions, and they are scored on various things such as job knowledge, teamwork, personal responsibility, problem solving, longterm goals, etc. That's not a popularity contest, that is judging who is the best candidate based on their interview and the responses they give.
  2. by   klone
    Quote from TriciaJ
    "Best" friends with management? "Best" brown-noser? "Best" at self-promotion (but not necessarily backed up by performance)? I've seen a lot of "best"s in my time; often very subjective and depends on who's measuring.
    Best as in most qualified. I guess I thought that was self-evident.
  3. by   caffeinatednurse
    Quote from That Guy
    If it means you start hiring the best people for the job instead of just the person who was there the longest, I see nothing wrong with it.
    Ditto.

    I was hired on as a nursing supervisor after working at a facility for just 4 months. Although the more seasoned nurses liked to gripe that I was still a newbie, none of them wanted to step up and be held accountable for the entire shift and staff. A few months later, I was their "favorite" supervisor - they would never admit to having a problem with me then!
  4. by   Ruby Vee
    Quote from Cvepo
    But we aren't talking about holidays, paid time off, etc. We are talking about career advancements, and I'm sorry, but just because you worked somewhere a while does not mean you're the best person for a job. It's not ageism; it's just fairness. My point still stands: just because you have been a company for a while does not mean you're the best fit for a job.

    And honestly, each shift needs a healthy mix of new and old on it. It isn't safe for an entire night shift staff of newbies compared to a veteran day shift.
    And I believe I addressed career advancements by saying that seniority was not the best qualifier (at least not all by itself) there. As a tie breaker, definitely.

    The OP was describing a system basing advancements on popularity, which isn't "fair" either. The most popular may not even be competent.
  5. by   Ruby Vee
    Quote from klone
    I feel like I'm reading a different thread than you. The peer interviewers assign scores to the various candidates. We do that, as well. All candidates are given the same questions, and they are scored on various things such as job knowledge, teamwork, personal responsibility, problem solving, longterm goals, etc. That's not a popularity contest, that is judging who is the best candidate based on their interview and the responses they give.
    Clearly you've never seen a system where peer interviewers "Decide who is the best candidate based on their interview and the responses they give." Unless the peer interviewers are completely impartial, the most popular do indeed get promoted. The most popular may not be the best candidate for the job, but if they have more friends on the interviewing committee, they "interview the best." The unknown candidate who may have the best qualifications, or the unpopular candidate who may be perfect for the job won't "interview as well" because they aren't already popular with the interviewing committee. Somehow, the most popular folks are always the ones who get picked for the committee, and they hire their friends . . . and you end up with one huge clique of two-year nurses making hiring decisions when they aren't even competent at their own jobs yet (or barely competent.) It's a bad system.
  6. by   NuGuyNurse2b
    Quote from caffeinatednurse
    Ditto.

    I was hired on as a nursing supervisor after working at a facility for just 4 months. Although the more seasoned nurses liked to gripe that I was still a newbie, none of them wanted to step up and be held accountable for the entire shift and staff. A few months later, I was their "favorite" supervisor - they would never admit to having a problem with me then!
    This. People who cling to the seniority model want to pick and choose when and where their seniority should apply, and when it doesn't. Our floor has horrible turnover and nobody wants to take the leadership role. So when the position is open and management approaches any one of the senior nurses, they all turn it down, but boy do they give their 2cents about any young one who is gunning for the spot.
  7. by   nursel56
    Quote from NuGuyNurse2b
    This. People who cling to the seniority model want to pick and choose when and where their seniority should apply, and when it doesn't. Our floor has horrible turnover and nobody wants to take the leadership role. So when the position is open and management approaches any one of the senior nurses, they all turn it down, but boy do they give their 2cents about any young one who is gunning for the spot.
    Warning: not entirely serious stereotyping paragraph ahead:

    I'm fine with younger managers. Just not the ones who snap their gum, flip their hair, gossip, check their Facebook every two seconds, tell patients "good job!" in an overly perky tone, and take the Myers-Brigg test waaay too seriously.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Sep 8 : Reason: add an intention explaining disclaimer
  8. by   klone
    Quote from nursel56
    I'm fine with younger managers. Just not the ones who snap their gum, flip their hair, gossip, check their Facebook every two seconds, tell patients "good job!" in an overly perky tone, and take the Myers-Brigg test waaay too seriously.
    That was a very specific description!
  9. by   Wuzzie
    Quote from Cvepo
    . I would never ask someone why they don't retire so others can have jobs. However, I challenge some of the older generation to look into what the new generation of workers is entering into, and the disadvantages they face. I came out with a BSN from a state school with over 25k in debt, and that's low compared to most. Housing prices in moderately large metro areas are well out of reach for the younger generation. Pensions and retirements are almost non-existant to new nurses.
    Hate to break it to you but we "oldsters" faced the same challenges as today's new grads. Sorry but that "disadvantage" is not unique to your generation. As far as pensions go you really want to know what sucks? Paying into a pension plan for years only to have it go "poof" just before you retire.
  10. by   caffeinatednurse
    Quote from nursel56
    I'm fine with younger managers. Just not the ones who snap their gum, flip their hair, gossip, check their Facebook every two seconds, tell patients "good job!" in an overly perky tone, and take the Myers-Brigg test waaay too seriously.
    Clearly you've had a younger manager that rubbed you the wrong way, personality wise.

    I've yet to meet one like this. Most younger managers I've met are hard workers, very competent, a little competitive, and respectful of the experience and wisdom that more seasoned nurses bring to the table.
  11. by   caffeinatednurse
    This is not a cut and dry issue. There are many gray areas to it.

    Take for instance a nurse at my last facility. He had been there longer than anybody else. He was resistant to change in policies and procedures. He would flat out refuse do admissions to HIS unit and try to pawn it off on another nurse. He made multiple med errors on a weekly basis. He did NOT work well with other nurses. He regularly called off and went home early. In spite of all of that, he demanded to have 3-4 LENGTHY vacations every year so he could use up all of the PTO he had acquired. Is this fair? In this case, I don't think so. He's not a team player and he struggles to meet the minimal standards for his job. He forces management to cover for him during his vacations, which ultimately interfere with other staff and their time off. But he wants to play the seniority card when it best suits him.

    When the manager position came open, he was the first one to tear down any promotions that management had in mind. He complained that he should have been their first pick, even though he did not possess the degree or license they were looking for.

    That is the type of attitude that I've encountered. To me, that nurse seemed to feel more entitled than the new grads I was training. It wasn't until I started my new job that I realized where all of the seasoned nurses who are interested in keeping up their certifications and running circles around the newer nurses are...THOSE are the nurses that have my respect. Not the ones that hide behind the fact that they've been there the longest but aren't willing to do what's expected of them or their job.
  12. by   vintagemother
    I'm a newer RN, <2 yrs in my position. I don't begrudge my colleagues with seniority. I hope I will one day be the person with the most seniority.

    At my job, seniority guarantees the most flexibility re scheduled vacations, mandatory call offs due to low census, and moving to a different, more preferred shift.

    I say, "I ain't mad atcha"!! And "can't beat them, join them" One day, I'll have seniority! 💕
  13. by   TriciaJ
    Quote from caffeinatednurse
    This is not a cut and dry issue. There are many gray areas to it.

    That is the type of attitude that I've encountered. To me, that nurse seemed to feel more entitled than the new grads I was training. It wasn't until I started my new job that I realized where all of the seasoned nurses who are interested in keeping up their certifications and running circles around the newer nurses are...THOSE are the nurses that have my respect. Not the ones that hide behind the fact that they've been there the longest but aren't willing to do what's expected of them or their job.
    Exactly. I don't think anyone's making the case for seniority being the only criterion for advancement. Sounds like this guy has only been around the longest because no one ever fired him for his poor performance. His seniority should not be his golden ticket when he is clearly disqualified for a host of other reasons.

    But there are situations where seniority is dismissed out of hand and popularity contests are used for advancement. Or managers hand-pick people whom they find malleable. Most of us with a few years under our belts think that seniority should be given at least some weight.

    And yes, if the seasoned nurses are not willing to step up into leadership positions, they should be prepared to put their full support behind whomever is.

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