pro life to work in ER OR OB

Wow!! That's not at all what I was trying to say!! With all respect, I re-read my response, and I don't understand how one would think that but apparently that's an incorrect assumption on my part. I apologize for not making myself clear. Since I tend to write posts that are too long, I didn't get too much into my beliefs- but I guess I will now. I am a woman of many flaws and questionable beliefs, but I am not a religious fanatical, judgemental, egotistical, coldhearted, narcissistic, disrespectful female canine.

When I read the original post, all I knew was that the poster 1. is Catholic and 2. opposed to abortion. Having worked in a Catholic majority state, I know that Catholics can a vary greatly on how strict they are in their own personal beliefs- beyond what the church may say. The point I was making was that if OP was a devout Catholic, then she would most likely be uncomfortable working in any institution that used BC or did any type of abortion, including 'Mom will die' scenarios. Were that the case, I would not hold that against her- it's her belief.... but I was trying to make the point that any non-Catholic run facility would probably be a problem for her. I think it's great that she posted the question on a board for nursing professionals. If she is worried that she may have a potential conflict between her beliefs and her job should she choose a certain speciality, what better way to get feedback as to whether it's a feasible goal? I respect that. Were she an absolute strict and devout Catholic, I feel she would have a problem finding a suitable position outside of a Catholic hospital. I have no problem with that. Were she a strict Catholic who took a position on just any OB floor (for example), and used that to create a battleground to flaunt her views.... I'd have a problem with that. BUT, that is not my impression of her or her intentions. My impression is that she wants to see if it's possible to work in an area she would really like to work in if she has 'x' point of view. I think she has most likely put a great deal of thought into the matter. The basis of my post was that if she doesn't oppose BC, post-abortion complication care, or similiar issues, then I think there are instances that she could work in ER/OR/OB and never have to make a decision which she would feel was wrong. I don't personally judge her on her views, one way or the other.

Now, as to my views on life and religion in general.... I'll try to be brief but it will still be too long. I usually try to keep my personal views to myself, but I am compelled in this as though I may have many flaws... I am not a bigot!!! I will not be called so, without trying to explain my point of view.
-I believe in God. I call 'Him' 'God', because it's easy and He seems to not have a problem with it. Personally, I feel He is to infinite to quantify, but it's not practical to refer to him by some long descriptive sentence and I feel He is a practical being.
-I consider myself to be a Christian, and I freely admit others would disagree. I don't think there is any church that would uphold my views.
-To me, the fact that we have so many different religions proves there is a God. Call Him Allah, God, Buddha, The Great White Spirit, whatever. God is infinite, people are not. He knows this, and provides us with choice so we can all find our little click.
-It is not God's fault that people use His name, be it God, Allah, whatever; and His message to commit atrocities. There are crazy Christians, Muslams, and Buddhists.
-God gave us free will.
-Since God gave us free will- the Bible cannot be viewed as the be all, end all. Word of God, yes.... but filtered through and susequently manipulated by the hand of man. It's a tool, not an absolute literal guide for how life should be. Furthermore, I feel the same can be said of other religious texts. I also feel that we are now seeing 'new books', like 'The Gospel of Judas', surface into mainstream because God wants it to happen. There's a lesson there to be learned, and we have just now reached the stage where He feels humanity is ready. I have a hard time believing that a collection of books a few influential men put together centuries ago could be the final and absolute Word of God.
-Jesus was also a political force to be reckoned with. To deny Him that credit diminishes His genius.
-I think it's better to 'preach' Christianity through one's actions, not words.
-I don't beleive there is an absolute final and eternal hell.
-I believe in reincarnation. Completely.
-I think you should question God, but be respectful! I think God even understands arguing w. Him- to a point.
-God does not want us to judge- I think He's pretty clear on that one.
-Evolution, Big Bang, and science in general supports the fact that there is a God. Look at the patterns- how could it all be random? From the wonders of the atom to the vast universe, God has His hand in all of it. He is infinite. It is presumptuous, to me, to put our limited understanding of time and space as constraints on God. He made the heavens and Earth.... the fact that it was in seven days is to help us, through all of our limitations, understand it as best we can. If we lived on a planet that had ten days, it would probably say He made it all in nine and then rested. God apparently understands the importance of rest.
So, that is the basis of my belief. There's more, but I am well aware of my flaw that is Too Long Posts.

Now, while I'm slinging my beliefs around and offending many- on to abortion. I am pro-life. My choice for my life and how I try to live it as I think is best for me. So, when I was saying I would have a problem administering a to-this-date-not-approved-by-the-FDA-abortion-pill, aka RU-486, I meant it. I tried to make clear that I don't view Plan B as an abortion pill and that I have no problem administering Plan B. I work with a Catholic Nurse who does have a problem with it.... and because I respect this nurse I don't mind giving Plan B for him/her. This is also a Nurse who holds him/herself to a very strict level of Catholicism, but freely admits s/he doesn't judge others who don't. I appreciate this, because I do have a problem with hipocrisy. Even as strict as this nurse is w/ regards to personal belief.... this nurse would never deny care to an ER pt on the grounds that said pt had an abortion.
I don't have a problem in some situations with 'medical abortions'. I would not personally do it, and we can discuss hypothetical extreme cases all day long, but I doubt I'll change how I would handle it. Again, and I hate to repeat myself, I don't judge others who feel differently. To give a few examples, I'll start w/ my own story. The first US of my daughter when I was pregnant showed what seemed to be a fairly significant spinal defect. US #2 showed a 'possibility' of a spinal problem. She was born fat and healthy. My OB at one point hinted that there was the possibility to discuss 'options', and I politely declined. Another real world situation that comes to mind- only because someone mentioned it in another post, is trisomy 13. I had a pt once w/ this. About as full-blown as it could be in a pt who lived to be over 10yrs old. Whether it was total trisomy or mosiacism, I have no clue. But the child lived to be almost 11. Yes, this child had profound disability, but I have rarely seen such dedicated parents. This child knew s/he had love, and gave love as well. About the only definite thing s/he could do was smile- but it was beautiful. I support the parents decision to not have a medical termination, and I can tell you there were times they argued w/ God about whether their choice was right or not- they were certainly judged at times because they didn't. Would I judge another parent who chose a different route- no.
The problem with 'medically necessary' abortion is the individual and wide variations in what pople consider 'medically necessary.'
I'll not elaborate further at this point to nail down my specific and personal opinions. Again, too long, I know. I'm all for an open debate, though. I love me a good debate..... yum! lol. If enough people would like to, I'm willing to have a polite and lively debate. I usually avoid these in 'real life', because sometimes emotions prevail, but cyberspace is perfect. One has the opportunity to step back and take the time to make one's point in a civil manner. I think hot topic debates are great, provided that people can behave and respect other points of view. You can't appreciate someone's point of view, sometimes, without have a good debate about it all.
To bad we don't have a "Ethical Issues in Nursing" board, or maybe we do and I just haven't found it.

So there you have it, a very long but still brief summation of Rhia's point-of-view. Hopefully I've managed in all my long-windedness to convey the fact that I am not an intolerant person. About the only thing in life I have no tolerance for is intolerance.

First let me say that I am prolife....so I am prochoice. I do not believe in making abortion illegal.

My religion, even in its' strictist form permits abortion in some circumstances, and if the mother's health is at serious risk by carrying a child to term, may actually advocate for abortion.

I do not participate in abortion, because the vast number do not meet those ethical guidelines, and because I personally do not feel that I could be the best advocate for those patients, without my personal feelings getting in the way. I am ambivalant about abortion and thus choose to not work in areas where that would be common place.

So I work in oncology, a field that does not deal with those patients. Would I prefer to work in L&D, as I once wished...of course.

But part of having strongly held beliefs and feelings is that if you are going to hold true, you often make sacrifices. That means you may not be able to work in the exact field that you want.

Throughout the history of your religion (like mine), many of its' followers have had to make major sacrifices to espouse those beliefs. And many of those sacrifices have included hardship, occasionally torture or death, for those beliefs.

Sacrificing by working in an area that is not your first choice, to hold true to your deeply held beliefs and feelings is not nearly that difficult a sacrifice, in comparison.

Do keep several things in mind, though.

All areas of nursing contain some theologically devisive issues. In oncology, we often require use of birth control, as some absolutely drug regimens require it (thalidomide). Second, the vast majority of chemotherapeutic agents are incompatible with fetal health, not to mention pregnancy being a serious danger to the health of cancer pts in treatment. And in treatment of severe leukemias/liquid tumors, we often use BC to suppress menses, as there may be much more severe bleeding to the point of major blood losss requiring repeated transfusions. While this is compatible with my ethical/religious beliefs, I have had Catholic staff the objected as well as Catholic pts that refused these interventions.

And on probably 95% of units, patients occasionally face end of life decisions. In many cases, we have pts in severe pain who are compromised. Giving them pain med to make it tolerable may and often does shorten their life. When a pt dies shortly after you have given them meds to make them more comfortable, how are you going to feel? When a family makes the decision to discontinue life support, how will you handle that?

These are things to think hard about.

Also, remember that if you even work at a facility that has any of these practices, you are receiving compensation related to abortion. Is that not profiting from abortion and innately wrong per Catholic guidelines?

(And as an aside, not even working in a Catholic facility may protect you against participating in some unacceptable Catholic activities. In at least two Catholic facilities that I have worked, they very publically were against abortions/BCs/and sterilizations, yet I know for a fact that they did do tubal ligations, and not because the mother's health was at any risk at all from child birth. I believe the phrase on the consent was "Tubal ligation for the purpose of uterine isolation and prevention of disease)

Wow! You really shouldn't be a nurse!!

If you are catholic enough to refuse to take part in an abortion based on the doctorine, then you should follow ALL the doctorine.

If you refuse to take part for personal reasons that's a whole different story.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Hmmm interesting. I didn't know you weren't allowed to listen. And what I said was like, say a teen, which is a rare time, comes in pregnant, is upset, and is just depressed over the situation, maybe suicidal, needs immediate attention. You wouldn't be allowed to sit and listen to her vent? If she says "I know I want to have an abortion, I can't do this." You wouldn't be allowed to say "I understand how you may be feeling, why have you decided on that decision, do you know the risks?" In school, we're taught to actually talk to our patients. I'm not talking about "therapy sessions" I'm talking about just those rare instances that occur every now and then where you may have to take those extra few moments. Never know, you may find out it's not her that wants to abort, but actually her parents. In that turn, I would find a way for them to maybe seek family counseling, and direct it to a professional in that area. I truly believe in sitting and listening to your patients, you can learn a lot about them/ their condition. I understand what you're saying, but what we've been taught in schools, and how our providers in my state work seem completely different. It's so weird to hear all of these different stories. I don't think anyone of us is right, I think it depends on the board, you staying within scope of your pratice, and also what your facility allows. I do know, that in Psych, RN's hold the group, and one-on-one basically "therapy" sessions.. Not psychological, but anger-management, expressing emotions and feelings, commincating effectively. Like I said, my son has been in and out of Psych facilities, and many of them, and they all practice in the same way. Interesting!

Anyway, I'm sure I will have my BSN before I'm in the psych field, due to limited positions in Psych with your LPN. As soon as I receive my BSN I plan on doing case-management, and I think people misunderstood that I'm not going to be a staff nurse, my role will be completely different, so I will have a completely different job description than that of a staff nurse.

Excited and can't wait! =)

So if one is not pro life would that make them pro death???? I really wish they would update the terminology to Pro Abortion or Anti Abortion or something. Or simply Pro Choice and Anti Choice???

I am pro life for most people, and it has nothing to do with abortions

I have thought the same thing many times. The pro-abortion vs. anti-abortion wouldn't work or most of the people who are pro-choice however, we are NOT pro-abortion. We simply believe that a woman has the right to choose what happens to her own body.

For example, you are a young woman who is in the prime of her life. Hypothetically, you recieve a diagnosis of colon cancer. Would you think it was right for your oncologist to say..well because you are a young and productive member of society you have to have the chemotherapy, surgery to remove the affected part of your colon and then the radiation after to ensure we erdicated your disease? Or would you prefer to be a participant in your care and make your own decisions?

That is what it boils down to, it's not for or against abortion (although many pro-life people like to make it out that way). It's for a woman's right to choose.

Again, sorry for going a little off-topic, but where did you get this idea? RU 486 has been FDA approved since, I think, 2000. If it were not FDA approved, it would not be legal to prescribe or dispense it in the US, same as any other Rx medication ...

ITA -- I've been using "pro-choice" and "anti-choice" consistently for years now. To me "anti-choice" is much clearer and more accurate than "pro-life," since so many anti-abortion folks are perfectly fine with killing people in wars or capital punishment.

Ok so Pro right to an abortion and Anti right to an abortion