Opinion about autism - page 5

Is it possible that autism and vaccines are linked?... Read More

  1. by   carolinapooh
    [QUOTE=vickynurse;2148407]
    Quote from almost a cnm
    It makes me wonder what has changed in obstetrics and peds in the last 20 years. I don't work in peds but here are some things that have changed in OB just off the top of my head:
    1. Increased use of continuous EFM.
    2. Increased rate of inductions.
    3. Increased rate of epidurals.
    4. Incresed rate of c/s.
    5. Almost every pregnant women gets an ultrasound now. Before it was just if a problem was suspected.
    6. I'm not sure but I think the breastfeeding rate has increased in the last 20 years.

    That's all I can think of. Anyone else?[/QUOTE

    What about nutrition, lifestyle factors during and before pregnancy? A LOT has changed there. Not pointing fingers, remember we've only known about the importance of folic acid in recent years. There may be something else in the foodchain that is a factor. It may even be an exposure to something at an early age to the mother's eggs / DNA.
    Why on earth hasn't SOMEONE in our illustrious pack of researchers in this country come up with FOOD PRESERVATIVES??? They didn't eat this crap twenty, thirty, heck, even TEN years ago like we eat it now. The EU has BANNED most of the garbage we still allow to be processed and injected into our food - when are we going to get with the program?

    I am not a hippie, or a treehugger, and I don't even own one pair of Birkenstocks - but I have to wonder about this.
  2. by   CRNI-ICU20
    you all are sooo very intuitive and smart people!
    yes....i am sure that much of this increase has alot to do with all of the combinations of what you mentioned: vaccines, evironmental factors, diet load of preservatives....(nothing like a good pesticide spray on your fruit, your cereal, your milk, and the coffee beans you just ground into coffee.) imagine this same load going into your child, and they, with their very small bodies, and livers, having to "process" it all...
    to judy: thimerisol has not been removed from vaccines....there is still mercury in vaccines on the market today being given to children and adults....along with aluminum in flu vaccines....read the labels.
    the fda ordered that thimerisol be removed....but has not enforced it.
    i find it completely ironic that we tell pregnant women to not eat more than one serving a week of seafood, because of the potential for mercury poisoning to the fetus while in utero, but we don't seem to have a problem with mercury being injected in a dosage designed for an adult into an infant three months after birth!! (the vaccine companies, ie chiron, merck, etc. have never measured or tested a 'child/infant' dose of their vaccines....they are all based on a 150 lb. male.

    for something to have been only 1/10,000 20 years ago, to now being 1/133 in just the last two years, this seems to be more than just better diagnosis and screening tools.

    the parents who hae seen their kids change literally overnight after an injection are not being heard.
    if the drug companies are so sure their products are safe, why aren't they transparent about it???
    if the drug companies are so sure their products are 100% safe, why do they make parents who have declared a vaccine injury to sign a waiver that says that if they receive any compensation from the us government that they cannot then sue the drug company?

    the vaccine injury compensation fund topped out at 4 billion dollars last year....huh????
    why are taxpayers being asked to subsidize failed medications???? what???
    google it....look up what we all paid last year for merck, chiron, genetech and others to continue making a bad, untested, unproven, failed product.....
    type in vaers....
    the ceo's of these companies, including mr. rumsfeld, have never had to sit before congress and answer for their giant failed test rat experiment using humans as their subjects....

    many will not believe that vaccines could cause so much damage....because we all have been 'schooled' to believe that vaccines are a medical miracle that prevents disease....no one would ever suspect that some vaccines are very harmful, and had very little testing done on them before being put on the market and injected into our children.
    many want to believe that our own government, ie fda, is a wonderful branch of our government that looks out after us.....when in fact, along with congress, have been bought and paid for by drug company lobbyists....to the tune of three for every congressperson who occupies a seat in our government....(my son was in politics in dc....he was barraged daily by these guys wanting to talk with "the senator"...and for a few mins. of his/her time, a nice check would appear in the coffer for re-election.

    yes...it's ugly....and it's wrong...and it"s very real....
    it's not conspiracy theory....it really happens....
    why else would the federal government set up such a huge fund to shut up parents of injured kids???
    i can't think of an answer, other than the above, can you?

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/

    here's what the fda says about mercury in vaccines....
    http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#act
    my recollection from chemistry class and hazmat studies is that there is no safe level of mercury for humans.....duh.

    http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm
    as you can see by this table, mercury is still in the vaccines....
    why is that??? when it was ordered to be stopped????
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

    here's an article....associated press....
    it should give you pause....about combination vaccines....and drug companies who are all about money....

    russian prosecutors probe gsk: illegal vaccine experiments on children wednesday, 07 march 2007 experimental vaccine tests on minors are illegal in russia. a report by the associated press indicates that glaxosmithkline is under criminal investigation by russia's prosecutor general for conducting vaccine trials on russian children.
    a statement posted on the prosecutor general's web site indicates that investigators began the probe at a hospital about 550 miles southeast of moscow, after several children who received the experimental vaccines without parental consent fell ill and parents raised questions. the statement said that more than 100 children between the ages of one and two were vaccinated during the trials.
    the vaccines: varilrix, for chickenpox, priorix, for mumps, measles and rubella, and priorix tetra, would treat all four diseases, have since been halted.
    prosecutors said said parents had been told the vaccines were humanitarian aid, while the deputy director of the hospital involved had been paid $50,000 to part
    http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/507/31/

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    so who would you believe?? parents who see right before their own eyes a complete change in their children.....or some high falutin' government fda worker who spends alot of time enjoying golf with one of gsk's lobbyists???
    it makes me sick......
    crni
  3. by   adrienurse
    Some random thoughts:
    #1 there are no drugs without side effects. Acetaminophen has side effects.
    #2 Child rearing techniques used to be blamed on autism. Everybody was so sure of that and then it was disproved. Imagine the years and years of judgement and guilt.
    #3 Autism is a catchall term. It's actually called Autism Spectrum disorder now and it encompasses many so called types of illnesses. Some are not even thought to be autism or even an illness anymore -- just a particular extreem sensitivity to stimuli (Asperger syndrome) and with the proper support some can live relatively normal lives. It seems unlikely all these illnesses have the same cause just because they've been historically grouped together. This also poses a problem in reserching the incidence of the disorder since what autism is has always been in question. There may not have been many people diagnosed as Autistic 50 years ago, but how many people were "just ain't right"?
    #4 Perhaps in the past before medicine advanced, fetuses who were predisposed to be autistic just didn't survive to term? What about infants in their first days of life. Child mortality rates used to be very high, especially for those who had devellopmental issues of difficulty thriving.
    #5 It's very easy to say no to vaccines when your child is protected by the immunity of those around them. It's also easy to think that diseases like Polio and whooping cough are harmless if you've never known someone who's suffered from them.
  4. by   adrienurse
    No offence to Rosie (I'm sure her training as a neurologist was top notch) but accorning to the National institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, the incidence of Autism is 3-6 in every 1000 children.
  5. by   adrienurse
    There's a lot of mercury in fish as well. So much so that there are certain types (such as tuna) to which it is recommended that people should not eat more than 4 times a month because of the risk for toxicity.
  6. by   mercyteapot
    Quote from adrienurse
    No offence to Rosie (I'm sure her training as a neurologist was top notch) but accorning to the National institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, the incidence of Autism is 3-6 in every 1000 children.
    According to figures released by the CDC in Feb, 2007, the prevalence is actually 1 in 150 children, but 6 in 1000 children would result in the figure she cited of 1 in 166.
  7. by   911fltrn
    I do alot of advocacy work for a beautiful little autistic girl. Just thinking of her makes my heart happy. To provide info for your discussion:

    RESEARCH

    Autistics Clinically Proven Mercury Poisoned

    From an organization press release.
    http://www.Mercury-freeDrugs.org

    Recent peer-reviewed scientific/medical studies by Nataf et al. (2006)
    and by Geier and Geier (2006) leave little doubt that many children with
    autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) are indeed mercury poisoned. These studies
    utilized urinary porphyrin profile analysis (UPPA) to assess body-burden and
    physiological effects of mercury in autistics. Today, any parent, physician,
    or healthcare provider can easily confirm whether a non-chelated autistic is
    mercury poisoned by having UPPA testing run at Laboratory Corporation of
    America (LabCorp) (CLIA-certified, Test#120980) or Laboratoire Philippe
    Auguste (ISO-certified, Urine Porphyrin Profile).
    UPPA is a highly accurate, inexpensive, non-invasive, and routinely
    available method for estimating body-burden and toxicity of mercury.
    Numerous peer-reviewed scientific/medical papers published over the past 40
    years, many of them supported by the US NIH, have proven the validity of
    using UPPA to identify mercury poisoning.
    UPPA profiling, unlike attempts to directly measure mercury in the
    blood, urine or feces, or in tissues (e.g., hair and nail), is a proven
    method for assessing mercury toxicity.
    Using UPPA, Nataf et al. (2006) studied the urinary porphyrin patterns
    in French children using the results reported by Laboratoire Philippe
    Auguste. Similarly, Geier and Geier (2006) studied the urinary porphyrin
    patterns in US children using the results reported by LabCorp.
    Both published studies:
    . Clearly demonstrated that non-chelated autistics had porphyrin
    patterns indicative of clinical mercury toxicity, while normal children and
    their normal sibling controls did not.
    . Found that the more severely affected the ASD children were the
    higher their evidence of mercury toxicity.
    . Established that treating autistics with chelating agents resulted
    in lower mercury-specific urinary porphyrins, which corresponded to apparent
    reductions in the mercury body-burden of these children.
    Many other physicians who take care of ASD patients have ordered UPPA
    testing and confirmed the observations made by Nataf et al. (2006) and Geier
    and Geier (2006).
    Thus, urinary porphyrin profile testing is being successfully used to:
    . Demonstrate the role of mercury in populations of autistics,
    . Identify those children and adults who are mercury poisoned, and
    . Track mercury excretion from affected children undergoing
    treatment.
    For the past several years there has been a raging controversy as to
    whether or not mercury in medicines, especially in vaccines, has caused the
    dramatic rise in the rate of children diagnosed with an ASD. Many experts
    have insisted ASDs are caused by some yet-to-be-identified genetic cause. A
    paper recently published in Nature Genetics described the results of
    multi-million-dollar genetics study (which studied a thousand-plus families
    with at least two autistics using in-depth genetic screening). Tellingly,
    the authors reported, "None of our linkage results can be interpreted as
    'statistically significant'." (The Autism Genome Project Consortium,
    2007).
    This makes it unlikely that purely genetic aberrations ! are t he root cause
    of most ASD cases.
    With the current porphyrin study results, public health officials
    should now publicly admit what they have been saying in their private
    transcripts and memos all along: Mercury from Thimerosal-containing vaccines
    and other medicines has been a major cause of ASD cases, which, according to
    recent CDC (2007) estimates, may occur one in every 150 children.

    CoMeD's web site, http://www.Mercury-freeDrugs.org contains:
    . Further information on how to order these tests,
    . Full copies of the Nataf et al. (2006) and Geier and Geier (2006)
    papers, and
    . Some of the many published papers validating the UPPA test.
  8. by   n2b8ter
    Quote from Hopefull2009
    Vaccinations are not without risks...none of them are. The risk factor may only be 1%, but unfortunately, there are some infants, like yourself, that end up being that 1%.

    Some infants die just from being put under anesthesia, but the surgeries, when necessary, go on and there isn't a huge movement to never put babies under anesthesia when neccessary.

    I have to disagree that autism is a developmental disorder...there is substantial debate of whether it's an illness or a developmental disorder, primarily because we don't know what causes it.

    Another example is Down's Syndrome...which isn't really a syndrome anymore, because the term syndrome is used to determine a set of conditions for which there is no known cause, and we have known what causes Down's Syndrome for quite some time, but the name has "stuck".
    I took interest in this topic because I have an autistic son. Im gonna post a link to the following website. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

    Autism is classified as a developmental disorder. You are correct in saying that there is debate on what causes it because we dont know. In my case, he sat up and said mama and dada on time. He walked at 12 months. But its like he regressed some and then did not talk normally until 3 and 1/2 yrs old. Thank God for my husband who is very supportive and a great dad to my son. We have a daughter together and she is normal. So I think its definately genetic. But I dont know for sure that something else didnt cause it. By the way, I have never done drugs nor did I drink during pregnancy. His bio father drank and did drugs. I found out the drug thing after I had already had my son. Maybe because his father did drugs caused something to be wrong with my son? I dont know. Wish there was a cure or surefire way to prevent it.
  9. by   blueheaven
    My brother is 43 years old. He walked at the usual time but did not talk. He had tests ad nauseam at Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with him. We (the family) figured that he fit the picture for autism more than any of the other things that MD's came up with. I am glad that there are more resources available now than there were when he was little.
    My mother did not smoke or drink when she was pregnant. My dad drank alcohol. He also worked in a chemical plant and was exposed to all kinds of stuff which could have done something. We just don't know.
  10. by   RNsRWe
    Posted by Noahm:
    These guys knew years ago that the thirmosal in the vaccines could cause autism in kids who are genetically susceptible. These kids don't filter toxins out of their systems like other people do because of a chromosomal abnormality. The mercury in the vaccines is just too much for these special kids.
    You really believe that "these guys" had complete knowledge that their vaccines could cause autism years ago, before they were introduced? That with this "knowledge" they still created and distributed it? I doubt there are many people at all, even believing that vaccines could be a potential link, who believe that there was a cadre of evil scientists rubbing their hands and saying "nah, they'll never find out that we're going to be destroying millions of children's lives..." Then again, conspiracy theorists always amuse me.

    As for the second part of that message, about autistic kids having "a chromosomal abnormality", where do you get this information? They don't have chromosomal abnormalities. Their chromosomes are quite normal (unless you are referring to Fragile X Syndrome, which is often placed on the autism spectrum, but is not true autism). There has been significant research showing the autistic BRAIN as being different, recent mirror neuron research is impacting the scientific community as we speak (Scientific American had a lengthy, detailed article on this: fascinating), but autistics do not have a chromosomal disorder. They have a neurological one.

    And as for them not being able to filter out toxins like mercury, that is a very old, very long debated theory, without scientifically-supported facts to hold it up. Sort of the chicken-or-the-egg approach: do autistic children have autism because they had too much exposure to mercury (or other heavy metals), so the excess metals CAUSED the autism....OR....do autistic children already have a a predisposition to retain heavy metals (such as mercury) so that's why children who are ALREADY autistic have higher levels of metals in their systems?

    Absolutely neither of those suggestions has been proven either way, which is what affords people all the water-cooler debates in the world, and each feels they are onto the "truth". Everyone can have an opinion, it seems, because of so little fact. And even what is accepted as fact in the scientific and medical commuity often gets disregarded with laypersons, because it doesn't support what they believe (regardless of fact).

    I, personally, don't believe vaccines caused autism and do believe the medical research that has for decades refuted the link; there is simply too much evidence in MY opinion to support continuing that line of research. Thimerosol HAS been dropped from routine vaccinations in children, it is NOT in pediatric use (unless a handful of MDs are illegally or unethically using out-of-date stock or stock meant for adults, and now we're starting to grasp wildly there), and yet the rates of childhood dx's keep increasing exponentially. A very well-regarded Danish study of a half million children (thanks, socialized medicine for the ability to do THAT one!) discounted the link several years ago. Caused quite a shake-up in the "vaccines did it to my kid" camp, as I recall. But then, since people prefer to spend time placing blame and wasting more money attacking the Deep Pockets Pharmacy Companies, only a short quiet time went by before the demand to prove the connection (once again) got raised. Less money will be spent on actual prevention studies as well as educational needs for the kids who are HERE NOW and need them. The internet is full of half-baked website supporting tons of unproven and far-reaching "links" to autism, as well as every other disorder known to man. Just because someone posted it online doesn't make it valid.

    I was fortunate to have a firstborn child who was typically-developing, and LOADS of background in childcare, before my second-born autistic son came along. Had he been my firstborn, I am quite sure I would not have recognized the early signs of autism in him, as early as a few months. But as it happens, I DID recognize those early signs that most people miss, and while I didn't know THAT they were signs of autism, I knew something was up. And it wasn't good. Other people saw a "good baby", not a blessed thing amiss, so I'm quite sure that had he been my first, I would have agreed with them. It wasn't obvious. But I didn't know what I WAS seeing, and had to wade through many many months of everyone telling me "he's just fine" before getting a professional that had a clue to LOOK at my child and know he wasn't fine: he was autistic--and had been since birth.

    I grow tired of this discusion, I have to admit, because so many people without fundamental knowledge of what autism is or does feel free to pipe in their own opinions of how often it's misdiagnosed, what the basis of dx should be, what should be "done" with "these kids", etc etc. I would never in a billion years presume to tell a family that has a child with a medical illness what are the (implied only) "right" social and medical choices, what is the "right" educational placement, what are the "right" therapies, and yet people feel compelled to tell those of us with autistic children exactly what we did right, wrong, and how to "fix" things for the future. Actually had one person (at a church gathering, if you can believe it) tell me that I must feel "awful" having given my child vaccines, knowing that he's "now" autistic. I imagine this type of person would also have, thirty years ago, told me that I must feel awful being a Frigid Mother, and causing an autistic child (as was the popular--and now disregarded--belief years ago).

    Gets a little tiring, I have to say.
    Last edit by RNsRWe on Apr 10, '07 : Reason: typo fix
  11. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from RNsRWe
    Posted by Noahm:


    You really believe that "these guys" had complete knowledge that their vaccines could cause autism years ago, before they were introduced? That with this "knowledge" they still created and distributed it? I doubt there are many people at all, even believing that vaccines could be a potential link, who believe that there was a cadre of evil scientists rubbing their hands and saying "nah, they'll never find out that we're going to be destroying millions of children's lives..." Then again, conspiracy theorists always amuse me.

    As for the second part of that message, about autistic kids having "a chromosomal abnormality", where do you get this information? They don't have chromosomal abnormalities. Their chromosomes are quite normal (unless you are referring to Fragile X Syndrome, which is often placed on the autism spectrum, but is not true autism). There has been significant research showing the autistic BRAIN as being different, recent mirror neuron research is impacting the scientific community as we speak (Scientific American had a lengthy, detailed article on this: fascinating), but autistics do not have a chromosomal disorder. They have a neurological one.

    And as for them not being able to filter out toxins like mercury, that is a very old, very long debated theory, without scientifically-supported facts to hold it up. Sort of the chicken-or-the-egg approach: do autistic children have autism because they had too much exposure to mercury (or other heavy metals), so the excess metals CAUSED the autism....OR....do autistic children already have a a predisposition to retain heavy metals (such as mercury) so that's why children who are ALREADY autistic have higher levels of metals in their systems?

    Absolutely neither of those suggestions has been proven either way, which is what affords people all the water-cooler debates in the world, and each feels they are onto the "truth". Everyone can have an opinion, it seems, because of so little fact. And even what is accepted as fact in the scientific and medical commuity often gets disregarded with laypersons, because it doesn't support what they believe (regardless of fact).

    I, personally, don't believe vaccines caused autism and do believe the medical research that has for decades refuted the link; there is simply too much evidence in MY opinion to support continuing that line of research. Thimerosol HAS been dropped from routine vaccinations in children, it is NOT in pediatric use (unless a handful of MDs are illegally or unethically using out-of-date stock or stock meant for adults, and now we're starting to grasp wildly there), and yet the rates of childhood dx's keep increasing exponentially. A very well-regarded Danish study of a half million children (thanks, socialized medicine for the ability to do THAT one!) discounted the link several years ago. Caused quite a shake-up in the "vaccines did it to my kid" camp, as I recall. But then, since people prefer to spend time placing blame and wasting more money attacking the Deep Pockets Pharmacy Companies, only a short quiet time went by before the demand to prove the connection (once again) got raised. Less money will be spent on actual prevention studies as well as educational needs for the kids who are HERE NOW and need them. The internet is full of half-baked website supporting tons of unproven and far-reaching "links" to autism, as well as every other disorder known to man. Just because someone posted it online doesn't make it valid.

    I was fortunate to have a firstborn child who was typically-developing, and LOADS of background in childcare, before my second-born autistic son came along. Had he been my firstborn, I am quite sure I would not have recognized the early signs of autism in him, as early as a few months. But as it happens, I DID recognize those early signs that most people miss, and while I didn't know THAT they were signs of autism, I knew something was up. And it wasn't good. Other people saw a "good baby", not a blessed thing amiss, so I'm quite sure that had he been my first, I would have agreed with them. It wasn't obvious. But I didn't know what I WAS seeing, and had to wade through many many months of everyone telling me "he's just fine" before getting a professional that had a clue to LOOK at my child and know he wasn't fine: he was autistic--and had been since birth.

    I grow tired of this discusion, I have to admit, because so many people without fundamental knowledge of what autism is or does feel free to pipe in their own opinions of how often it's misdiagnosed, what the basis of dx should be, what should be "done" with "these kids", etc etc. I would never in a billion years presume to tell a family that has a child with a medical illness what are the (implied only) "right" social and medical choices, what is the "right" educational placement, what are the "right" therapies, and yet people feel compelled to tell those of us with autistic children exactly what we did right, wrong, and how to "fix" things for the future. Actually had one person (at a church gathering, if you can believe it) tell me that I must feel "awful" having given my child vaccines, knowing that he's "now" autistic. I imagine this type of person would also have, thirty years ago, told me that I must feel awful being a Frigid Mother, and causing an autistic child (as was the popular--and now disregarded--belief years ago).

    Gets a little tiring, I have to say.
    This is a good post.

    I will be 50 this summer. I distinctly remember when I was in college in the early 80's being taught that many of the childhood neurological problems in children were caused by "frigid" mothers and absent fathers.

    Many books read then were written in the 50's and 60's . . one I especially loved was "Children With Emerald Eyes" by Mira Rothenberg. But her theories back then were not looking at genetics or even vaccines but parenting.

    It is a very good book though - she writes with passion and the children in that book have lived with me for 30 years.

    steph
  12. by   mercyteapot
    Hmmm... when I get tired of a discussion, I leave it.
  13. by   2curlygirls
    I keep hearing about high rates or Autism in places like Silicon Valley. A theory is that there's so many people with similar brains that their kids get bred into having superconcentrated brain areas.

    My uncle, the ped neurologist autism researcher believes it is genetic. Many AS kids have very intellectual/Silicon Valley software engineer type fathers (I live in SV BTW). I'm sure that iisn't always the case, but he has noted a strong association.

    And I thought the Geiers had been discredited.
    Last edit by 2curlygirls on Apr 10, '07

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