Nursing Education - - page 2

I have been told that nursing for the future will be optimum education level - PhD. Is this necessary? Is this the direction of our furture as nurses?... Read More

  1. by   debbyed
    I could not have said it better. I serve as a Senior Clinical Nurse in our ER. I have no desire to climb the ladder any higher than that and feel that my Associates degree has served me well over these 25+ years. The continuing education I participate in is in areas I will use and/or I enjoy. Statistics.............I have no use for, where as nutrition is important and so on and so forth.
  2. by   Q.
    Originally posted by andylane78
    Sorry. But I just can't see the need for a PhD, unless you want to be an author or a Dean.
    Don't you think it's reasonable to have your professor have a Ph.D? Don't you think it's reasonable to have a nurse who is looking at data and doing studies which effect how we do patient care to have a Ph.D? A Ph.D is alot more than just writing books and being a Dean of a school.

  3. by   askater11
    I feel BSN's will be required after the shortage. In MI. most teacher's are getting MSN's. As technology grow's there's more we need to learn.

    I love education. I love to learn more and more!!! I wish we'd get compensated more though...
  4. by   Q.
    Originally posted by nate
    Not a nurse yet. But I know this for a fact that in our community college (adn) they produce better prepared nurse than the university level graduates (bsn). In fact I 've heard that the nclex pass rate is 90% at the community college. And only 50% at university they are having really big problems. My plan is to get a adn degree then either move onto bsn or bachelors in biology so i can be a NP or Pa or Crna.
    I think this point is soooo moot. I failed the NCLEX the first time and I am not afraid to admit it. I am a BSN grad. But yet, after only one year of clinical job experience, was promoted to a Level 4 nurse (1-5). So...because I didn't pass the NCLEX right away (as in, not being a good test taker) does that mean that my clinical skills are substandard? No. And certainly, this type of blanket statement can't be made of all BSNs.

    Someone stated that true learning comes after graduation and on the job. I couldn't agree more.
  5. by   WashYaHands
    I agree with Suzy in that there is a need for Master's and PhD nurses to become educators. These degrees are required by both community colleges and universities if a nurse desires to teach. The nursing shortage is hitting academia just as hard as it is hitting bedside nurses. Nursing instructors are retiring and we need more nurses to take on the role of educators. I think that sometimes we as bedside nurses forget that most of the nurses who choose to work for higher degrees started out just like us...at the bedside.
    In terms of NCLEX pass rates. I did a little research in my own state. The BON where I am posts yearly pass rates for all programs in the state. What I found was that pass rates are very similar in both ADN and BSN programs. It really depends on the institution, not the degree level. I also noticed that in years where pass rates are lower...they are lower across the board at both levels of education. In my research I found that there is not a consistently higher pass rate from one degree to another, and each year is different.
    I've never worked anywhere where I was on the floor and had nurses asking eachother's degree levels. We're all there for the patient and the important thing is..we all got there.

    Linda
  6. by   semstr
    ok here we go.
    i am a diploma-nurse (trained in the Netherland from1978-1982), got a pediatrics-diploma here in Austria and did a educationprogram here too.
    I don't have a BSN, neither a PhD or whatever.
    I have been a nurse-educator for 10 years now.
    Only since last year, you can study nursing at the university, first ones will be coming out next year.
    I don't think I am not as good as a Prof. or PhD, for the simple reason: we haven't got them here!!
    Sure, I have collegues who studied philosphy or something like that, to get their PhD, but not in nursing.
    So what is this all about? Having a "title" or being competent?

    Honestly I prefer being educated by people who know what they talk about, instead of people calling themselves professor.

    Take care and keep on educating, Renee
  7. by   Q.
    Renee:
    Just to clarify: here in the States you don't just get to "call yourself" professor simply because you have PhD. Being a professor is a title/position that you are appointed to or earn.

    The best instructors I had were all levels: clinical instructors with a Master's; and full-fledged professors with PhD's, and a staff nurse who has been a Labor and Delivery nurse for 15 years with an ADN.

    I can tell you that here in the States, to be an educator at the university level you need at least a Master's degree, and I think that is appropriate. I myself am learning that graduate school is sooooo much different than undergrad - you are graded on participation in class discussions and original thought. You are pushed to analyze nursing theories that effect bedside care, and you are taught how to critically look at studies. I think it is remarkably interesting.

    Despite being a grad student, I am also a bedside nurse. I feel that just because I will have "more letters" after my name won't make me less qualified or know what I am talking about - my higher education will only enhance what I've learned at the bedside and will make me an effective educator.

    My current faculty is a MSN nurse working on her PhD. This woman has managed to open and expand on a fully nurse run only clinic that serves the underpriveldged and no insurance populations in Milwaukee. She just received an award and several grants. That's the other thing about grad school - they show you how to write effective grant proposals! I think her higher education only enhances what she has done. She brings alot to her seminars and I feel she wouldn't be complete without all of those factors: her Masters and her experience. They go hand in hand.
  8. by   semstr
    You can't just call yourself prof. here either, you have to earn it, sorry that I didn't make that clearer.

    The way we teach here in the diploma-training, is not much different from your gradschool.
    The training is 3 years, and before entering, the students need at least 11 positive schoolyears. (that means no negative notes, the system here is 1 to 5, 1 being very good and 5 being negative)
    So our students are 17 and (most of them) older.
    Since they finished the basics at "normal"-school, we only have to teach nursing, no physics and stuff like that.

    It is a different aproach, as the system in the US, I am aware of that, but I don't think it is better, or for that matter, worse.
    (Nobody said that, but me, ok!)

    PS: English is part of the training though! Over the whole three years.

    Take care, Renee
  9. by   nurs4kids
    Originally posted by Susy K


    I think this point is soooo moot. I failed the NCLEX the first time and I am not afraid to admit it. I am a BSN grad. But yet, after only one year of clinical job experience, was promoted to a Level 4 nurse (1-5). So...because I didn't pass the NCLEX right away (as in, not being a good test taker) does that mean that my clinical skills are substandard? No. And certainly, this type of blanket statement can't be made of all BSNs.

    Someone stated that true learning comes after graduation and on the job. I couldn't agree more.
    Suz,
    If the point here is moot, then where is the logic for the push toward BSN entry?? It can't be both ways. Either the education matters or it doesn't. The way education has always been qualified is through testing. Just as you do not have substandard clinical skills, neither do most ADN and diploma prepared nurses.
    True learning DOES come on the job...and in life.
    tracy
  10. by   Q.
    Hi Tracy,

    Let me clarify.

    What I mean by "moot" is that test-taking abilities or pass/fail rates of NCLEX can be attributed to many factors, other than simply BSN or ADN preparation. WashYaHands posted an interesting statement when she stated that she noticed trends within pass rates across the board.

    There probably needs to be more research done in this area but despite what some statistics might say, my argument is this: I can see why a nursing program that is less than 4 years, or, leaves out some classes that the BSN program includes can contribute to higher pass rates of the NCLEX. Meaning, these programs can be arguably geared towards preparation for the NCLEX and that's it, whereas a BSN program doesn't focus so much on that but rather, other preparation that can prepare you for advancement or returning to school if you desire. So..does it matter? For example, you are a ADN grad. Let's assume that for the sake of the argument that your program's initiative was to have you pass NCLEX - and - you passed it first time. I am a BSN grad. My program, while it taught me nursing pyschomotor skills, etc, also taught me other things that we can safely assume were not included in your program. I failed the NCLEX first time. But, as time went on, we are both RNs now. We are probably both comparable in our fields of work clinically. The difference? Our degree.

    Now you are probably wondering so how I can be a proponent of a minimum entry of a BSN after I made the above statement. I still have yet to decide if I feel that BSN should be the minimum. Perhaps an ADN should be. At any rate, I feel the point of entry for nursing needs to be consistent and ONE thing - none of this diploma, ADN, BSN etc. It leads to confusion and in-fighting and comparisons. It divides us when it should be uniting us.

    I just re-read some of the posts and someone made the remark that by promoting the various opportunities for BSNs that it contributes to the shortage. I highly doubt it. Yes I agree bedside nursing is a speciality all in itself and some people can be content with just that: I am not. Would the profession rather have me working at the bedside for 5 years while I continue my education or would they rather have me not at all? Because if I wasn't able to get a Bachelor's while at the same time being a nurse, I would not, and I repeat, WOULD NOT have become a nurse. A college degree was important to me for various reasons and part of the attraction of nursing for me was the ability to move around if I desire.

    I think nurses at all educational levels are important to the profession. By dismissing BSNs and higher, you obviously (and this is not directed at you Tracy - this is just in general) do not know what purpose those degrees hold and how they contribute to the bedside, albeit indirectly, but they DO contribute.
  11. by   askater11
    I do think there need's to be more incentive to further your education.

    I love education I've always been like that. I have little kid's now so I'm not going to "school" but getting a lot of books and magazines. Reading articles on the Internet. There is so much to learn and I love it. I truly feel it makes me a better nurse.

    I've never taken a "specialty" exam. Though I'd love to try it....and I will once I find my nitch. I definitately would've already taken it if it was offered per hospital (employer)...no fee. (or minimal fee) Hey if they didn't want to pay for the class increase my pay a little.

    I'm happy that we need continueing education(CEU's) in Michigan. It makes me grow...and learn.
  12. by   nurs4kids
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Hi Tracy,

    Let me clarify.

    What I mean by "moot" is that test-taking abilities or pass/fail rates of NCLEX can be attributed to many factors, other than simply BSN or ADN preparation. WashYaHands posted an interesting statement when she stated that she noticed trends within pass rates across the board.

    There probably needs to be more research done in this area but despite what some statistics might say, my argument is this: I can see why a nursing program that is less than 4 years, or, leaves out some classes that the BSN program includes can contribute to higher pass rates of the NCLEX. Meaning, these programs can be arguably geared towards preparation for the NCLEX and that's it, whereas a BSN program doesn't focus so much on that but rather, other preparation that can prepare you for advancement or returning to school if you desire. So..does it matter? For example, you are a ADN grad. Let's assume that for the sake of the argument that your program's initiative was to have you pass NCLEX - and - you passed it first time. I am a BSN grad. My program, while it taught me nursing pyschomotor skills, etc, also taught me other things that we can safely assume were not included in your program. I failed the NCLEX first time. But, as time went on, we are both RNs now. We are probably both comparable in our fields of work clinically. The difference? Our degree.

    Now you are probably wondering so how I can be a proponent of a minimum entry of a BSN after I made the above statement. I still have yet to decide if I feel that BSN should be the minimum. Perhaps an ADN should be. At any rate, I feel the point of entry for nursing needs to be consistent and ONE thing - none of this diploma, ADN, BSN etc. It leads to confusion and in-fighting and comparisons. It divides us when it should be uniting us.

    I just re-read some of the posts and someone made the remark that by promoting the various opportunities for BSNs that it contributes to the shortage. I highly doubt it. Yes I agree bedside nursing is a speciality all in itself and some people can be content with just that: I am not. Would the profession rather have me working at the bedside for 5 years while I continue my education or would they rather have me not at all? Because if I wasn't able to get a Bachelor's while at the same time being a nurse, I would not, and I repeat, WOULD NOT have become a nurse. A college degree was important to me for various reasons and part of the attraction of nursing for me was the ability to move around if I desire.

    I think nurses at all educational levels are important to the profession. By dismissing BSNs and higher, you obviously (and this is not directed at you Tracy - this is just in general) do not know what purpose those degrees hold and how they contribute to the bedside, albeit indirectly, but they DO contribute.
    Very well said, suz!!! I couldn't agree with you more!
    just saw need for a little clarification
    tracy
  13. by   Q.
    More incentive for education would definitely be great; right now the only incentive is personal gain, and while that's great, it doesn't pay off those loans quite as well!


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