Nurses Being brought in from another country - page 3

Not sure how I feel about this and I'm wondering if anyone out there has experienced this with there hospital. The hospital I currently work in is bringing 15 nurses from another country in to work... Read More

  1. by   madwife2002
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    Thanks for the compliment (putdown). I'll never reply to these sort of threads again.:angryfire :angryfire :angryfire
    Marie I am sorry it was meant as humour:wink2:
  2. by   oncogene
    Hello everybody, I am new in this forum, but I would like to react to what has been said so far. If we recall the history of the United States, everyone is an immigrant really. I believe that America has become the great nation that it is right now because of the contribution of Immigrants from all over the world. The US has a severe shortage of Nurses and here in the Philippines we have a severe shortage of jobs, as nations we are helping our Citizens achieve a goal which will make life better for all of us. We now live in a Global Community, where nations should reach out to other nations. Moving to another city is difficult, imagine moving to another country and working in a company where people have already pre-judged you before you even arrive. I have just passed the NCLEX and I will soon be joining these foreign trained nurses in your country. I hope I get a warm welcome. We have worked so hard to become nurses at par with American/Native -born Nurses.:wink2:
  3. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from Tweety
    My beef, as I've said many times, that while we brought in those foreign workers there's hundreds of students on waiting lists in this town. If there were just some way to get them educated, this wouldn't be necessary.
    I agree. I would treat the new, foreign nurses with the same respect due any new employee. In fact, I might go out of my way to be even a bit more welcoming just because they are in a new country and may have some culture shock. I think it would be really hard to adjust to a new country.

    That said, I don't think we should be importing masses of foreign nurses like we are. Last year over 150,000 US citizens were turned away from nursing schools simply due to lack of space and lack of nursing professors. It is a matter of priorities IMHO and the US does not prioritize certain things well, like funding education for its own citizens. It's cheaper to let other countries pay to train nurses then import those nurses.

    All that said - the foreign nurse is an individual and should not be the recipient of any anger or frustration that is caused by governmental or societal problems.

    I do think that some immigrants are too sensitive and see any questioning of immigration policies as a personal attack.
  4. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from oncogene
    Hello everybody, I am new in this forum, but I would like to react to what has been said so far. If we recall the history of the United States, everyone is an immigrant really. I believe that America has become the great nation that it is right now because of the contribution of Immigrants from all over the world. The US has a severe shortage of Nurses and here in the Philippines we have a severe shortage of jobs, as nations we are helping our Citizens achieve a goal which will make life better for all of us. We now live in a Global Community, where nations should reach out to other nations. Moving to another city is difficult, imagine moving to another country and working in a company where people have already pre-judged you before you even arrive. I have just passed the NCLEX and I will soon be joining these foreign trained nurses in your country. I hope I get a warm welcome. We have worked so hard to become nurses at par with American/Native -born Nurses.:wink2:
    Your sentiments are in the right place, but you won't get far with the argument that Americans are all really immigrants and that we are really a 'global community'.

    Many Americans will challenge both assumptions.

    If you want to take that immigrant argument to its logical conclusion: every human everywhere was ultimately an immigrant from somewhere. As for me, I'm an American Citizen, legally born and raised here, and that sufficiently establishes my 'native' status and distinguishes it from the real modern and everyday differences in status of others.

    As far as being a 'global' community, many Americans are quite nationalistic with a streak of isolationism not sufficiently expressed in our foreign policy. For example, I tend to look at the united nations as an illegitimate organization that has no autonomy over the U.S. And, I'm not alone. In fact, I dare say that is a majority opinion here.

    I welcome the opportunity for qualified nurses to come and benefit from our bountiful table at the same time as they contribute to it. If you've read my other posts on the topic, I'm generally pro-immigrant for those that take the time and effort to engage the process. I respect that, and I respect the goals for coming here.

    But, the arguments that I am just some land-squatter with no more rights to my native land and benefits than anybody else: that might not get the reactions that you expect or intend.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Sep 10, '06
  5. by   oncogene
    That is true, we are all immigrants. Maybe many generations ago for someone born in the US, but we are all descendants of immigrants. History is such that we cannot change it. I have studied in the US in the past. I think America is a great nation and Americans are among the friendliest people in the world, but I also feel the United Nations is admirable, as an organization which aims to forge nations to work better with each other, a very difficult and lofty aim. We all have our view of our world, working together to reach a common goal is the difficult part. But nothing good is ever easy. I was a little surprised by that term "land-squatter" though, I have never heard it in any discussion about immigration.
  6. by   Multicollinearity
    Oncogene,

    I agree with what Timothy said. What troubles me is the attitude of expecting and/or perceiving it to be one's right to immigrate to any particular country. (Not saying you said this, just my thoughts in general.) There is no such right. Boundaries and borders exist for many reasons. The citizens of nations have a fundamental right to this, IMHO. I know there are some folks who believe that there should be no borders or separate nations, eventually. They believe this is what we are evolving towards. You won't find much of that attitude in the US.

    For example, I would like to someday immigrate to Canada to be near some of my Canadian relatives and for other reasons. Since I am not a Canadian citizen, I view the opportunity to become a Canadian citizen as a gift which is entirely up to the Canadian government. They owe me nothing. If I am permitted to become a Canadian citizen - I will say thank you for the opportunity given to me by Canada. I would not feel entitled to citizenship or wax philosophical about all of us being immigrants at one time or another.
  7. by   oncogene
    We are both writing in English but somehow my words are being misread. To be given the chance to live, work or study in America is entirely up to your Government, we are all aware of that. I have relatives, aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Nieces and nephews who are now American Citizens, and whenever I see them I am happy that they have not forgotten that they are immigrants. It is not a bad thing to be an immigrant,(or to be a descendant of an immigrant) nor to be proud of your possible contributions to your new country of residence. Although you say that I did not say it, your reply suggests that I feel I am entitled to an American Citizenship. Right now I am only applying for the right to work in your country, not citizenship. Maybe I do not deserve this gift yet, maybe I do not even want it, I love my country just as you do, but I have children who I feel will get a better future in America. I only wrote that immigration to America has happened in the past and will continue to happen. That immigrants enjoy the bounty but also contribute greatly to the progress of a nation, any nation. We, as nurses, do not go there to cause trouble, we are going there to take care of those who are ill and those who are unable to care for themselves, whether American, Chinese, Spanish etc.. I am also a nurse educator, and maybe I can contribute to ease the shortage of educators there, too, so that in the future, maybe, masses of foreign nurses with thick accents will not be needed. But in the meantime, your countrymen have a need for more nurses, we have a need for jobs. everyone benefits. Someday maybe a Filipina nurse could be caring for you, too, or an American nurse caring for me. As long as its a competent nurse caring for us, there is really no cause for worry..
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from oncogene
    We are both writing in English but somehow my words are being misread. To be given the chance to live, work or study in America is entirely up to your Government, we are all aware of that. I have relatives, aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Nieces and nephews who are now American Citizens, and whenever I see them I am happy that they have not forgotten that they are immigrants. It is not a bad thing to be an immigrant,(or to be a descendant of an immigrant) nor to be proud of your possible contributions to your new country of residence. Although you say that I did not say it, your reply suggests that I feel I am entitled to an American Citizenship. Right now I am only applying for the right to work in your country, not citizenship. Maybe I do not deserve this gift yet, maybe I do not even want it, I love my country just as you do, but I have children who I feel will get a better future in America. I only wrote that immigration to America has happened in the past and will continue to happen. That immigrants enjoy the bounty but also contribute greatly to the progress of a nation, any nation. We, as nurses, do not go there to cause trouble, we are going there to take care of those who are ill and those who are unable to care for themselves, whether American, Chinese, Spanish etc.. I am also a nurse educator, and maybe I can contribute to ease the shortage of educators there, too, so that in the future, maybe, masses of foreign nurses with thick accents will not be needed. But in the meantime, your countrymen have a need for more nurses, we have a need for jobs. everyone benefits. Someday maybe a Filipina nurse could be caring for you, too, or an American nurse caring for me. As long as its a competent nurse caring for us, there is really no cause for worry..
    I realized that it wasn't what you were saying, but it was how you said it.

    You talked about Americans being immigrants and it being a 'global' community. The implication is that you have as much right to be here as us because we aren't 'legimately' here, hence the phrase, 'land-squatter' and that the borders and rules shouldn't apply in a 'global' community.

    That IS normally how comparing Americans as all being immigrants means: that we aren't anymore entitled to be here than anyone else.

    I'm not an 'immigrant' because I didn't migrate here. In fact, I can trace my family history back to Texas from BEFORE Texas was a State, or in fact, a Nation in its own right for that matter. My great great great grandfather fought at the Alamo. I have relatives that fought on both sides of our Civil War.

    I have a Great Uncle, A.J. Roberts, that died in WWII with ~1775 of his fellow soldiers and sailors as a prisoner of war on a Japanese hellship, in transit from Manila to Japan to be used as slave labor. The sinking of the Arisan Maru is still considered the largest loss of American lives in a single disaster at sea. It was sunk by an American sub as an unmarked Japanese warship on the eve of the Battle of Leyte Gulf. From the Pacific War Memorial on Corregidor: “Sleep, my sons, your duty done, for Freedom's light has come; sleep in the silent depths of the sea, or in your bed of hallowed sod, until you hear at dawn the low, clear reveille of God.”

    I was trying to point out, without putting down your underlying sentiment, that those two concepts can and will cause lots of resentment in Americans that could take such comments to be a repudiation of our national heritage.

    So, what I said was this: many or most Americans will not look kindly on the point of view that all Americans are immigrants or that we are a 'global community'.

    You are expressing generic platitudes and they are not inherently negative ones. But, they can, and would by many, be interpreted as specific negative comments about America and it's generally independent heritage.

    I wasn't trying to 'change your mind' because I understood what you meant. I was just trying to point out that the way you said it could cause some unintended conflict.

    Good luck on coming here. I'm sure both you and America will be blessed by your being here.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Sep 10, '06
  9. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I realized that it wasn't what you were saying, but it was how you said it.

    You talked about Americans being immigrants and it being a 'global' community. The implication is that you have as much right to be here as us because we aren't 'legimately' here, hence the phrase, 'land-squatter' and that the borders and rules shouldn't apply in a 'global' community.

    That IS normally how comparing Americans as all being immigrants means: that we aren't anymore entitled to be here than anyone else.

    I'm not an 'immigrant' because I didn't migrate here. In fact, I can trace my family history back to Texas from BEFORE Texas was a State, or in fact, a Nation in its own right for that matter. My great great great grandfather fought at the Alamo. I have relatives that fought on both sides of our Civil War. I have a Great Uncle, A.J. Roberts, that died as a prisoner of war on a Japanese warship during WWII because we sunk it, regardless of the fact that it was carrying 'human shields'.

    I was trying to point out, without putting down your underlying sentiment, that those two concepts can and will cause lots of resentment in Americans that could take such comments to be a repudiation of our national heritage.

    So, what I said was this: many or most Americans will not look kindly on the point of view that all Americans are immigrants or that we are a 'global community'.

    You are expressing generic platitudes and they are not inherently negative ones. But, they can, and would by many, be interpreted as specific negative comments about America and it's generally independent heritage.

    I wasn't trying to 'change your mind' because I understood what you meant. I was just trying to point out that the way you said it could cause some unintended conflict.

    Good luck on coming here. I'm sure both you and America will be blessed by your being here.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Thank you for expressing what I was thinking, but couldn't put into words very well.
  10. by   Multicollinearity
    Oncogene,

    I imagine you are wondering why we are responding as we are. You haven't said anything inflammatory. It's just that if you said this type of thing with a group of co-workers here in the US - I guarantee that many would be thinking what we are posting. But nobody would say anything in real life. They'd walk away from the conversation after being polite and saying nothing. And so it goes. Wouldn't you rather understand this sort of subtle issue before you get here?
  11. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from oncogene
    But in the meantime, your countrymen have a need for more nurses, we have a need for jobs. everyone benefits.
    Therein lies a great fallacy.

    There is no "shortage" of nurses in America.

    Let me repeat that:

    THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF NURSES IN AMERICA!
    (all caps are intentional)

    My countrymen could easily fill the "need for more nurses" here, with the thousands of nurses that are already citizens here, already educated here, have their families that are here and need financial support. There are more than enough nurses in the US, that are not working as nurses, to fill our need and export some.

    Why are they not working as nurses? Some due to retirement, others due to major injury, periods of childrearing, etc. But the majority are not working for reasons that can easily be accomodated. Some have received injuries at work that their employers (who had the unsafe conditions that permitted the injury) refuse to accomodate. Nurses that repeatedly had their pay cut, or were mandated continually, nurses that got tired of fighting for the right to provide adequate safe care to their patients. Nurses that saw abusive practices, reported them after trying to get the facility to change, and then are permanently blackballed from the profession. Nurses that attempted to utilize their right to organize to stop abuse (nurse Gentry), only to have a facility post bogus charges against their license - keeping them from working for extensive periods of time (PS - the courts did find in favor of Gentry.....5or10 years later- but the amount of money she was awarded probably does not compensate for the financial damage that she sustained, nor the stress or damage to her career from the bogus charges).

    We would not have a "shortage" of nurses, if the POBs would start improving working conditions. But rather than do so, they would rather import them and keep their power intact.
    Last edit by caroladybelle on Sep 10, '06
  12. by   Sheri257
    I wouldn't have a problem with foreign nurses coming here, as long as they're not paid lower wages. But, the fact is, they are in at least some cases.

    It's obvious from the posts in this forum that some foreign nurses don't have a clue about market wages because they don't live here. Some of them will take any job that will get them over here ... and that helps hospitals keep wages low.

    In my area ... we've got a hospital located 45 minutes away that's trying to recruit new grads at only $23 an hour. It's absolutely ridiculous because it's very expensive to live and/or commute there.

    It's even more ridiculous because a hospital closer to home where the cost of living is cheaper and there's no commuting costs, has just raised their new grad pay to $26 an hour (thanks to a new union contract). By next year, new grads will be making $28 an hour. And we're living in the lower paying area of the region.

    How does a hospital that's located in the more expensive, usually much higher paying area actually pay lower wages than anybody else in the entire region? They hire foreign nurses ... because nobody in their right mind who lives here is going to work for those lower wages. And they can pay foreign nurses less because the federal government says $23 an hour is "market" wages in the region ... even when it's actually far below market

    When foreign nurses come here, there's got to be a mechanism in place to make sure they get paid real market wages. Because, otherwise ... this hurts everybody ... both American and foreign nurses.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Sep 10, '06
  13. by   Sheri257
    Quote from caroladybelle
    THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF NURSES IN AMERICA!
    (all caps are intentional)

    We would not have a "shortage" of nurses, if the POBs would start improving working conditions. But rather than do so, they would rather import them and keep their power intact.
    This is probably true. About 17 percent of licensed RN's nationwide ... about 500,000 ... aren't working.

    But, in California where we have a ratio law (i.e. improved working conditions) only 6 percent of RN's aren't working.

    If you cut the non-working RN's nationwide down to six percent like in California with better working conditions ... you'd probably have about 330,000 more RN's in the workforce nationwide ... and not much of a shortage.

    But, ratios cost money ... and so does higher American nursing wages. Foreign nurses are one way to minimize those costs.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Sep 10, '06

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