No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 6

I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing... Read More

  1. Visit  Not_A_Hat_Person profile page
    1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Then there is the fact the business of law is changing. Firms are laying off, going bankrupt or simply going out of existence. Meanwhile companies are finding ways of reducing their legal costs. Work is being outsourced to other countries, or places are hiring their own internal attorneys. What is clear is that there is a trend away from paying vastly inflated sums for billable hours for work done by first year associates. That is one of the key reasons new law grads are having such a hard time finding work.
    Both of my sisters are lawyers. One went to a first-tier law school, and survived a hellish first job (independent contractor, no benefits) before getting a job with the state. The second went through 3 jobs before joining the Army and becoming a JAG.

    A law firm in Boston made the news last month for posting a full-time associate job paying $10,000 per year, less than minimum wage. That kind of salary would make a new lawyer eligible for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing. Worse, more than 50 new grad lawyers have applied for the job.
    Last edit by Not_A_Hat_Person on Jul 4, '12 : Reason: more info
    DizzyLizzyNurse likes this.
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  3. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    1
    Quote from Not_A_Hat_Person
    Both of my sisters are lawyers. One went to a first-tier law school, and survived a hellish first job (independent contractor, no benefits) before getting a job with the state. The second went through 3 jobs before joining the Army and becoming a JAG.

    A law firm in Boston made the news last month for posting a full-time associate job paying $10,000 per year, less than minimum wage. That kind of salary would make a new lawyer eligible for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing. Worse, more than 50 new grad lawyers have applied for the job.
    Forgot to add in my OP on the matter above that other dirty little secrets have come out about law schools recently. One is that is by and large law schools do not teach one how to actually practice, that comes after graduation in those coveted full time first year associate positions. But rather one is taught about the law, theories and so forth. Learning the acutal nuts and bolts of how to practice comes post graduation

    There are graduates from all manner of law schools top and low that upon graduation do not know the most simple basics of the profession. Things such as how to bring and manage a lawsuit in court, drawing up contracts and briefs, etc.. It is during the grunt work of being an associate that one learns these things. In short law is rather like nursing in that one does obtain permission to practice by passing an exam, but there is so much pratical knowledge yet to learn in order to function.

    The other secret is that by and large professors especially at the top law schools are not chosen because they are sucessful practicing attorneys. Rather selection generally relies upon published bodies of work such as what appears in law journals. For those here it would be like hiring nurse educators that have never actually practiced at the bedside or had *VERY* limited experience.

    Am not surprised many would jump at the chance to get an associate gig even at $10K per year. No one is probably expected to remain in that spot for long,but the experience gained is worth far more than the pay.
    Last edit by DoGoodThenGo on Jul 4, '12
    koi310 likes this.
  4. Visit  WildcatFanRN profile page
    0
    Quote from HM-8404
    Did I misunderstand your post or did you say you graduated nursing school in 2008, can't get a job and don't see that as a sign of not being employable?

    No, you didn't misunderstand. It may not being something I'll enjoy doing, but I'll find something. I also will most likely have to move someplace else where they actually are hiring, even though I can't really afford to. I have to keep plugging away because I refuse to believe I just wasted several thousand dollars on a useless RN license.
  5. Visit  gypsynurs profile page
    1
    Did anyone ever consider that unemployed nurses might be unemployed by CHOICE? Nursing is quite stressful and many nurses suffer from Burn-out.
    Burlshoe114 likes this.
  6. Visit  smartnurse1982 profile page
    5
    I believe someone on the previous page pointed out what I believe to be the problem.Schools should emphasize that a majority of today's nursing students WILL NOT work in hospitals. Hospitals are becoming a thing of the past. Most,maybe a little over half,will end up working in community based nursing to include homecare and ambulatory care.I myself have 8 years experience as a nurse. 4 were as an Lpn,4 as an Rn.I have been doing private duty for all of those years as my primary job.it seems there are many openings In private duty,yet we also have a glut of nurses in Nj. I haven't worked in a hospital before,but I don't feel that has had any effect on my ability to perform skiiled nursing care. There have been times when the hospital nurses asked me how to operate a vent or insert a G button.

    What I do feel is having a HUGE impact on the shortage of nursing jobs is imported nurses.
    I was actually on another board and someone said that the reason healthcare is so high is because nurses make too much. She said her sister in law made 60 dollars an hr. and that a nurse shouldn't be making that much. I don't know where she lived,but nursing pay in Nj has been dropping,and it seems to drop every year.
    Case in point: I was with this company for 3 years. When I relocated,I was making $30.00 an hr in 2009. I recently re applied with the company,and they told me they can't start me off with that amount because the new wage for someone with my experince was 27/hr. Mind you,I started with the company making 30/hr as a new grad.
    Last edit by smartnurse1982 on Jul 5, '12
  7. Visit  Patti_RN profile page
    5
    Smartnurse brings up a good point about wages. While there may be some truth to the theory that imported nurses are driving wages downward, I believe this is more attributed to the basic economic concept of supply and demand. Nursing schools are churning out graduates at record rates, new jobs are not being created at the same rate, nor is attrition creating vacancies to satisfy the number of job applicants. With more applicants competing for fewer positions, the obvious effect is downward pressure on wages. Before someone jumps in with a conspiracy theory, let me address that. No, hospitals, LTC facilities, and other employers, are not 'in cahoots' with nursing schools and colleges who are pumping out all these new nurses. Nursing schools have their own agenda which is based on another simple economic principle of economy of scale. Businesses that become larger become more profitable, so these schools (which are businesses) have tremendous incentive to expand their student rolls. While employers don't actively collude with these schools, they do benefit from the additional supply of nurses, so may promote the fallacy of a 'nursing shortage'.
    silenced, Szasz_is_Right, itsmejuli, and 2 others like this.
  8. Visit  lovedijah profile page
    8
    I don't mean to be evil, but it seems like some people want nursing schools to put a big fat blinking sign outside the door that says, "Warning. You may pay us 50,000 for this education and find yourself without a job. Proceed with caution". :redlight: Then you will probably have people who say, "Oh I came in the back door. I didn't see the sign. This is so unfair". Nurses, it's OK to use critical thinking when not in uniform.

    There is a large group of unemployed nurses who aren't willing to make the sacrifices to find a job. The same way you sacrificed in nursing school is the same way you need to sacrifice to find a job. Sacrifice is apart of life. A BSN doesn't make you immune to this. Nor does any other advanced degree. If you had to relocate to even get into nursing school, why is it such a shock you may have to relocate to find a job? Clearly this is a competitive game. I realize people have children and spouses, preferences, obligations, whatever, whatever, whatever. But it is what it is.

    If I wasn't a morning person, I wouldn't get an education degree. If I wasn't willing to relocate or take a job at a place I didn't "like"- I would think long and hard about nursing school. Why are you taking out 50g's in loans if you are limiting yourself to only working at icu units within an hour from you.

    Here.. let me look at my crystal ball and tell you your chance of finding a job. 10%. It's unfortunate. It's tough. But if you're looking for someone to knock on your door and offer you a job following all your stipulations and requirements, may I suggest you sell Avon? Start your own business if you want to make the rules.
  9. Visit  netglow profile page
    6
    Quote from lovedijah
    There is a large group of unemployed nurses who aren't willing to make the sacrifices to find a job. The same way you sacrificed in nursing school is the same way you need to sacrifice to find a job. Sacrifice is apart of life. A BSN doesn't make you immune to this. Nor does any other advanced degree. If you had to relocate to even get into nursing school, why is it such a shock you may have to relocate to find a job? Clearly this is a competitive game. I realize people have children and spouses, preferences, obligations, whatever, whatever, whatever. But it is what it is.
    You know what, I think the large majority of unemployed nurses understand all of this already... if they are newly graduated they learn this quickly. I think there could be a minority who have someone else paying the bills - your words might apply to these people, but most have some serious financial responsibilities after their nursing education and are acutely aware of sacrifice. :icon_roll
    silenced, OCNRN63, Fiona59, and 3 others like this.
  10. Visit  TheCommuter profile page
    4
    Quote from Patti_RN
    With more applicants competing for fewer positions, the obvious effect is downward pressure on wages.
    Exactly. In a nutshell, this is called wage deflation, where the nursing pay rates actually remain stagnant or decrease even though the cost of living is increasing. Since nurses have become a dime a dozen during these past few years, companies can get away with paying less.
  11. Visit  HM-8404 profile page
    7
    Quote from TheCommuter
    Exactly. In a nutshell, this is called wage deflation, where the nursing pay rates actually remain stagnant or decrease even though the cost of living is increasing. Since nurses have become a dime a dozen during these past few years, companies can get away with paying less.
    This is a part of the reason the trades pay so well now. Fewer people willing to be become plumbers, electricians, etc and the pay keeps rising, when people flood a certain job market such as nursing or computer programming the pay falls, or does not keep up with inflation.
  12. Visit  elprup profile page
    0
    Quote from billyboblewis
    Anyone who has lost their job knows that there is no shortage. However with many dark spots on my record I have always succeeded in getting a job after a month or so because I did not give up and have often run into people who remembered me from the past and knew that I could get the job done. In other words until I actually had a job I kept applying and going for interviews. Every person in the world is going to clik with one person or another..you just have to stay positive.
    But without experience, it is getting hard to stay positive.
  13. Visit  netglow profile page
    4
    Quote from HM-8404
    This is a part of the reason the trades pay so well now. Fewer people willing to be become plumbers, electricians, etc and the pay keeps rising, when people flood a certain job market such as nursing or computer programming the pay falls, or does not keep up with inflation.

    Yes and the really skilled trades there is huge demand. The US is lacking in truly skilled trades people. In the Chicago area, we have been flooded as of the last few years with Polish/Russian immigrants.

    The entire family comes, lots are trades people. They stay within their own cultural network and when I shop I see them dropping huge cash on luxe items (it absolutely amazes me in this economy). They often pay in cash. There are more and more ads for healthcare positions requiring fluent Polish/Russian - not because the patients don't speak English (they all do fluently), it's because they keep with their own community. Polish physicians are often able to make some big bucks and remain independent of the big hospital networks due to their exclusive marketability.

    When I worked for a private practice a few years back, often payment of thousands was in cash from these folks. Yup the IRS never sees a penny from some I suspect. Funny thing though, the doc I worked for had Polish parents, but he was as American as they come himself - didn't speak a word of Polish. We laughed all the time at how we got so much biz just because of his last name.
    silenced, Fiona59, DizzyLizzyNurse, and 1 other like this.
  14. Visit  TheCommuter profile page
    10
    Quote from netglow
    Yes and the really skilled trades there is huge demand. The US is lacking in truly skilled trades people.
    I'm only speculating, but here is why I think the US is lacking in people who know who to perform the skilled trades.

    1. School officials, politicians, and some parents have discouraged teenagers and young adults from doing 'manual labor.' An entire generation of young adults has been encouraged to attend college or universities when some of them are not college material. However, what can you realistically do with a BA degree in theater arts, literature, philosophy, etc.?

    2. As recently as a generation ago, students were tracked into educational pathways based on their test scores and career aspirations. High schools once had vocational paths where students who became disengaged with regular courses could train to become welders, chefs, drafters, auto mechanics, computer office clerks, cosmetologists, manicurists, nursing assistants, and even LPNs. Vocational tracks have mostly disappeared from high schools, and these disengaged students are now forced to sit in college-prep high school courses.

    3. An unspoken stigma exists regarding factory work, plumbing, mechanical and electrical work, and any work done with the hands. Many of today's unemployed college graduates would not be caught dead with a hammer or wrench in their hands. However, this type of work builds character, and not everyone is capable of doing it.
    silenced, Aurora77, Szasz_is_Right, and 7 others like this.


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