No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - pg.5 | allnurses

No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 5

I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing... Read More

  1. Visit  workingharder profile page
    2
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Yeabut my biggest fear is by that time facilities will be well on their way to finding ways to staff with less nurses by using more (and cheaper) UAPs.Then there is the very real push to get as much of healthcare out of hospitals and into community based settings such as ambulatory and home care. Obamacare pushes things more in this direction (hence all that funding for AP nurses), but it does not bode well for those seeking hospital gigs.
    My sentiments also. Hospitals are no longer stand alone entities. Many, if not most, are subsets of large corporations whose primary loyalty is to the share holders. Maximizing revenue is the mantra now and if they are satisfied with the care one nurse can provide amongst 7 or 8 patients, then that is the way things will remain.We have too many nurses for the new healthcare reality.
    I have read that the glut is expected to subside by 2020. If present trends continue, we could have another 500,000 to 1,000,000 nurses graduate in that time. I believe we are looking at a "lost generation" of licenced, but under qualified nurses.
    Last edit by workingharder on Jul 4, '12 : Reason: I can't type on this phone.
    nursel56 and TheCommuter like this.
  2. Visit  chuckster profile page
    7
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Not trying to stir the pot but would like to add that merely holding a nice crisp new nursing license does not automatically equal employment.

    . . . Just as with most other businesses facilities are looking for the proper "fit" in potential new hires. So as there are those with say teaching degrees that never will see full or any employment in education, law degrees that never will land a top or middle tier legal position, and so forth there probably are going to be newly licensed nurses that never reach full or even part time facility employment.
    I'm not sure that this is a valid comparison. While it's true that there will be some engineering, law, business, etc. grads who will never see employment in their chosen field of study, their degrees are much more portable than a nursing degree. Engineers can (and do) get hired for many non-engineering jobs and the same is true for lawyers (in fact, this has been the case for some time and something like half of all law school grads never actually practice law). Very few businesses will hire someone with a BSN for a position in say, business operations, but those same concerns will consider engineers, JD's and business grads for such a job.

    Another important difference is that it costs someone - often the taxpayer - a considerable sum to train student nurses. This is over and above the tuition and fees that students themselves pay. When someone trains as a nurse and ultimately cannot find employment in nursing, that money is effectively wasted. If it is true as the OP's reference stated, that more than one-third of nursing grads are not employed as nurses, this represents a considerable investment for naught. If this is a structural thing, and for the foreseeable future one-third to upward of one-half nursing school grads will not be employed as nurses, it represents a massive investment that is for all intents and purposes, wasted and probably should be used for other purposes.

    What worries me most though, is that the laws of supply and demand do not seem to be working in nursing. While for example, law school admissions have declined considerably over the past several years in response to the poor job market for lawyers, this is not the case for nursing school enrollment. The numbers of nursing students (and new RN's) has increased dramatically over the past decade and worse, continue to increase, even as rates of nursing unemployment (and underemployment) have jumped. Unless this changes, the predictions of nursing shortages looming in the near future would seem to be flights of fancy.
    silenced, LovinLife28, KeyMaster, and 4 others like this.
  3. Visit  tothepointeLVN profile page
    0
    Quote from netglow
    Home health and hospice. Yeah, uh. Here's your warning.

    Most new grads working will be working home health or hospice. Some are well established, have the majority of RNs hospital experienced, have a complete training program for the new grads as well as experienced nurses they take on, and have well established clinical infrastructure.

    Unfortunately a growing majority are nothing like this. They are run by some seriously sleazy people. You will find that their nurses are 99% new grads. No training except for how to use their EMR. If you research you can find out the background of their ownership. Beautiful websites, heavy marketing - often stuff they advertise is getting to meet a star before you die stuff... and they get business this way. You will see them advertise constantly for RNs. Your director of nursing might be a new grad. You deal with patients - management does not - teflon.

    So sadly, just think about all the new RNs who continue with these companies because they need the money. Years go by and they can never leave. With a new job they will be expected to have learned from their years working as RNs. The legit home health and hospice companies know this and will not hire them, so even making a lateral move is nearly impossible.

    I have several friends in this trouble.
    Well I am going to point out that I AM an LVN so the situation is slightly different. Also I've been doing the above for a few years and its not as bad as you state.

    However my role is different. I'm not an RN that needed a new grad program to be considered employable. I WILL when I graduate RN school in a year or two but we'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
    Last edit by tothepointeLVN on Jul 4, '12
  4. Visit  tothepointeLVN profile page
    7
    Quote from chuckster

    What worries me most though, is that the laws of supply and demand do not seem to be working in nursing. While for example, law school admissions have declined considerably over the past several years in response to the poor job market for lawyers, this is not the case for nursing school enrollment. The numbers of nursing students (and new RN's) has increased dramatically over the past decade and worse, continue to increase, even as rates of nursing unemployment (and underemployment) have jumped. Unless this changes, the predictions of nursing shortages looming in the near future would seem to be flights of fancy.
    I think the big factor might be the that prospect law students must get through an undergraduate degree and the LCAT's before getting into law school. By that point they will have least heard the whisper of joblessness in the law field and think twice.

    Nursing isn't like that you can start on your prereqs at a community college simply by signing up. By the time someone starts hearing that nursing is not a sure thing anymore they have invested too much time and effort to change their minds
    silenced, KeyMaster, RN 033, and 4 others like this.
  5. Visit  malamud69 profile page
    2
    Quote from animal1953
    As you all are speaking from the RN stand point, I'm a new CNA grad, taking my state (FL) boards on the 14th. I've been applying since before graduation and was finally told they will reevaluate my application after I have my license. The places I've applied are the one where I am known because of my wifes illnesses and hospitalizations. I live in a area that is highly retired and the median age is 65 - 70. There are 6 different schools pumping out students 2 - 3 times a year as CNA's. We have to get experience somewhere but LTC and ALF are not where my focus and drive are. The job market here suck unless you want to flip burgers or work at Walmart ect. I chose this profession because I've had asthma all my life and my wife has had 2 strokes and has swallowing issues as well as 3rd degree burns on the backs of her legs. I did the wound care at home after being trained by the wound center staff. I had all these skills I've learned in my lifetime and felt that it was time to do something with them. I check the various job boards and hospital web sites and there are jobs there but getting in the door and selling myself is the major challenge. I guess that my point is that it's not only BSN,RN and LPN folks having trouble, the very entry level CNA's are in a world of hurt also.
    Come to New England...CNA turnover is so fast you could work 80 hours a week if you wanted to.
    Not_A_Hat_Person and Fiona59 like this.
  6. Visit  Patti_RN profile page
    8
    Thanks to all who added their experiences and shared their knowledge of the 'great nursing shortage where no one can find jobs'. Some months ago I gently explained to a pre-nursing student that setting her sights on L&D might not be realistic when she was struggling with pre-reqs and low TEAS scores, and when her anticipated graduation (from a for-profit) collage--the only school that accepted her--would cost more than $70,000 in tuition, alone. Too bad the posters here were not present. Her response was, "I've had this dream ever since I saw how nice the nurses were when I delivered my first baby, and I want to relive that experience with other new moms!"
    silenced, CNA1991, not.done.yet, and 5 others like this.
  7. Visit  morte profile page
    2
    tell her to be a doula instead.
    Quote from Patti_RN
    Thanks to all who added their experiences and shared their knowledge of the 'great nursing shortage where no one can find jobs'. Some months ago I gently explained to a pre-nursing student that setting her sights on L&D might not be realistic when she was struggling with pre-reqs and low TEAS scores, and when her anticipated graduation (from a for-profit) collage--the only school that accepted her--would cost more than $70,000 in tuition, alone. Too bad the posters here were not present. Her response was, "I've had this dream ever since I saw how nice the nurses were when I delivered my first baby, and I want to relive that experience with other new moms!"
    silenced and DizzyLizzyNurse like this.
  8. Visit  OCNRN63 profile page
    0
    Quote from netglow
    i also agree with ♪♫ in my ♥. but adn/bsn/msn means nothing in reality.

    make the nclex case-based in part. make that test a knock down drag out test, with some pathophysiological based written essays about the disease process. also, how about: "given such and such a diagnosis and s/s, the physician has prescribed the following medications. describe each medication's complete pharmacological impact on the patient (physiological pathways and therapeutic effect targeted and pitfalls nursing should be watchful for). - or something of the like.

    doesn't matter adn/bsn/msn - you do all have access to, and should be able to take the same test. the information is available to all.

    i thought the nclex was very easy> i was disgusted.
    making nclex more complex would be a great idea, but who would want to grade it? i don't think that sort of test would fly in today's instant gratification age. maybe nursing should test its students in the same manner medical schools test their students.
  9. Visit  OCNRN63 profile page
    4
    Quote from kcmylorn
    i have the need to vent-
    1. at age 56, i am a baby boomer. i do not consider this retirement age, old age or elderly!!!! unless one is very wealthy, like your ceo's but that is not me. i have a bankruptcy to pay off and 20 more years of mortage payments and zero for retirement except what ever social security is, which is not a kings ransom. so please stop posting that there is going to be this mass exodus of "the baby boomers" like it is going to be the biggest anticipated funeral of all man kind- i am very offended!!!! i would also like to add- i am no one's grandparent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i totally resent the sentiment- "get out. should retire. it's my turn." save those sentiments for your parents- who probably encourage such entitlement. they may appreciate them- i don't. it is rude, offensive and obnoxious- like passing gas in public., or the 5 year old brat i heard screaming in the waiting room today telling a stranger adult to "shut up" and his young mother not correcting him- whoopie another generation of entitlement.

    2. there are nurses( alot of nurses) out there who have been employed in the same job for years that do not realize how hard it is to find a job these days for the young nurse and the old. forget educating the doctors. we have to educate our own who are clueless.
    ​i also find this sentiment offensive. "gee, i can't wait for some older nurse to get sick and have to retire so i can have my dreeeaaammm job!"
    itsmejuli, KeyMaster, kcmylorn, and 1 other like this.
  10. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from chuckster
    I'm not sure that this is a valid comparison. While it's true that there will be some engineering, law, business, etc. grads who will never see employment in their chosen field of study, their degrees are much more portable than a nursing degree. Engineers can (and do) get hired for many non-engineering jobs and the same is true for lawyers (in fact, this has been the case for some time and something like half of all law school grads never actually practice law). Very few businesses will hire someone with a BSN for a position in say, business operations, but those same concerns will consider engineers, JD's and business grads for such a job.

    Another important difference is that it costs someone - often the taxpayer - a considerable sum to train student nurses. This is over and above the tuition and fees that students themselves pay. When someone trains as a nurse and ultimately cannot find employment in nursing, that money is effectively wasted. If it is true as the OP's reference stated, that more than one-third of nursing grads are not employed as nurses, this represents a considerable investment for naught. If this is a structural thing, and for the foreseeable future one-third to upward of one-half nursing school grads will not be employed as nurses, it represents a massive investment that is for all intents and purposes, wasted and probably should be used for other purposes.

    What worries me most though, is that the laws of supply and demand do not seem to be working in nursing. While for example, law school admissions have declined considerably over the past several years in response to the poor job market for lawyers, this is not the case for nursing school enrollment. The numbers of nursing students (and new RN's) has increased dramatically over the past decade and worse, continue to increase, even as rates of nursing unemployment (and underemployment) have jumped. Unless this changes, the predictions of nursing shortages looming in the near future would seem to be flights of fancy.
    Law school applicantion rates are indeed coming off the high of several years but there are several reasons.

    Yes, word is getting out that new lawyers are having a hard time finding legal work especially those high paying top firm associate spots that will allow them to make a dent in their student loan debt. But there are other reasons as well.

    The dirty little secret is finally emerging from what many in the legal profession have known for ages. There are only a handful of top ranked law schools in this country that it's worth bothering to attend much less go into deep debt. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Georgetown and perhaps a few others really are the only game in town if you want to work for a top firm and or make the sort of connections that put you into government or the federal bench. Look around Congress, The White House, State Department and so forth. You'll see the same law schools listed over and over on resumes of presidents, judges, senators, congressmen, etc...


    Then there is the fact the business of law is changing. Firms are laying off, going bankrupt or simply going out of existence. Meanwhile companies are finding ways of reducing their legal costs. Work is being outsourced to other countries, or places are hiring their own internal attorneys. What is clear is that there is a trend away from paying vastly inflated sums for billable hours for work done by first year associates. That is one of the key reasons new law grads are having such a hard time finding work.
  11. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from animal1953
    As you all are speaking from the RN stand point, I'm a new CNA grad, taking my state (FL) boards on the 14th. I've been applying since before graduation and was finally told they will reevaluate my application after I have my license. The places I've applied are the one where I am known because of my wifes illnesses and hospitalizations. I live in a area that is highly retired and the median age is 65 - 70. There are 6 different schools pumping out students 2 - 3 times a year as CNA's. We have to get experience somewhere but LTC and ALF are not where my focus and drive are. The job market here suck unless you want to flip burgers or work at Walmart ect. I chose this profession because I've had asthma all my life and my wife has had 2 strokes and has swallowing issues as well as 3rd degree burns on the backs of her legs. I did the wound care at home after being trained by the wound center staff. I had all these skills I've learned in my lifetime and felt that it was time to do something with them. I check the various job boards and hospital web sites and there are jobs there but getting in the door and selling myself is the major challenge. I guess that my point is that it's not only BSN,RN and LPN folks having trouble, the very entry level CNA's are in a world of hurt also.
    Have said this before as well. Nursing assistant positions are a particular problem for facilities in terms of finding quality personnel willing to put up with conditions on the ground for wages offered.

    Depending upon where you look places are either getting shot of NAs leaving nurses to get on the best they know how, or increasing the assistant ratio and using less nurses.

    Assistants have always been the backbone of the nursing service, more so as student nurses were removed from providing free labour to facilities. However for all the often back breaking work they do pay is usually not that good. Yes, some NAs aren't what they should be given reports here and elsewhere, but again what does anyone expect when many positions pay barely above minimum wage?


    On top of all this there is nothing NAs or other UAPs do that nurses cannot. So bean counters looking to stay in budget and looking for cost savings seem to be getting rid of NAs and spreading that work to the professional nurses. However for such a primary care model to work staffing has to be at levels so ratios allow a nurse to devote her or his resources properly. That usually doesn't happen.
  12. Visit  RNGriffin profile page
    0
    I'll present a sense of logic behind this post. True, there may not be a shortage in the amount of licensed nurses/registered nurses. There is a shortage in the amount of skilled nurses to perform in certain areas of dire need. There will continuously be a shortage of nurses if you examine the qualifications of new grads. Most new graduates will find a home in nursing, but not in the desired practice. There will be a shortage in patients, but as more individuals view the healthcare field as recession proof, we have less reimbursement coming in the healthcare facilities. Thus, this presents the problem that nurses are not needed or can not be afforded.
    A lot of tenured nurses build this scare tactic of there is a nursing shortage-there isn't a nursing shortage, based on their economic or employable standards. Colleges are producing more graduates in broad fields from law to arts. This means, whatever field you choose to work in there will be those who are unemployable and those who will be able to secure positions.
    Is there a nursing shortage technically? No. Is there a need for additional nurses nationwide? Of course. The labor field works off of statistical predictions ,not current necessity. The nursing shortage is based off of a 15 year retirement rate, which is bound to be adjusted if the recession is proven to be our new economy!
  13. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from tothepointeLVN
    Considering how expensive law school and supposedly how smart you are supposed to be to get in then I agree somewhat with the judge.

    Disclosure: I was a law student in NZ and I dropped out as soon as I realized that I'd need to be in the top 25% of my class to be able to get any kind of a job as a lawyer. Luckily I was only OOP about $1500NZD. You can go direct entry into law school back home so I had only just finished high school but even I could see the writing on the wall.
    There are only a handful of ways law grads make big money in the United States.

    The first is to work at/become a partner at a large and sucessful firm otherwise known as selling one's soul to the "billable hours" devil. Next there are government appointments or politics. Academia can bring prestige but is not promise of a big pay package. Finally there is the most common way which often blends several of the above; make a living suing anyone or thing that breathes.

    From civil court cases to major corporate ones a bulk of attorneys in this country make a living from dragging people and or businesses through the legal system. Everytime you see a Microsoft suing a Google you can bet there is an army of attorneys on both sides making a decent living. The latest goldmine is the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Attorneys are now scouring the country looking for places they think aren't in compliance with the law, find a disabled person to start the court case and then it's off to the races. Because the law provides the defendant must pay legal fees the attorney makes thousands or even hundreds of thousands per case, from which the disabled person is given a few hundred for his/her troubles. Mind you the disabled person may never have actually set foot or been discriminated against by the business or place, still the way the law is written it doesn't matter.

    This was covered in local NYC media a month ago. There are lawyers who live in Florida and elsewhere outside of the state that routinely come to NYC to search out buildings,shops and so forth that they think aren't in compliance with the law, then begin as outlined above. The thing has become so lucrative that there are now legal seminars to instruct lawyers how to get in on the gravy train.

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