No Nursing Shortage At The Present Time - page 18

by TheCommuter Asst. Admin

68,260 Views | 340 Comments

I am assured that some of you are reading this and saying to yourselves, "Duh! This topic is old hat. We already know there's a glut of nurses in many parts of the country, so why are you writing about this?" Here is my reason... Read More


  1. 1
    Quote from nursel56
    Thanks, DGTG - the links from the HuffPo page weren't in working condition. I'll get a hot beverage and some comfy slippers . . .
    Girl, you know me! *LOL* First few links one found weren't working either so...

    If you don't find something one way try another! Just hope the link stays live long enough for the mods to approve.

    Started reading awhile ago and am still going through the report. There is a state by state break down as well and NY has proved interesting. For instance between 2010 and 2010 the largest growth (41%)in this state's healthcare employment opening will be in support personnel. Nurses are only at (22%) which is slightly more than allied (21%), but larger than physicans (13%).
    Last edit by DoGoodThenGo on Jul 10, '12 : Reason: Spelling.
    nursel56 likes this.
  2. 1
    Quote from nursel56
    Thanks, DGTG - the links from the HuffPo page weren't in working condition. I'll get a hot beverage and some comfy slippers . . .
    Sent you the link via PM. Don't like being the only one up reading through this thing. *LOL*
    nursel56 likes this.
  3. 0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo

    Report lays out some predictions if true will truly rock nursing as many of y'all know it. For one it predicts unless steps are taken minorities will be at a disadvantage in future to becoming RNs. They base this on the increasing educational requirements expected of RNs (in short the BSN) which place an emphasis on math and sciences. Two subjects historically which Latino and African American students do poorly on average.
    I read a different study about this; apparently ADN programs educated over half of minority nurses, and researchers don't predict the majority of minorities will head on over to BSN programs if the bar is set higher.

    Which, of course, takes away a great opportunity for at-risk young (and older) people to reach higher, find success, and break the cycle of poverty.
  4. 4
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Report lays out some predictions if true will truly rock nursing as many of y'all know it. For one it predicts unless steps are taken minorities will be at a disadvantage in future to becoming RNs. They base this on the increasing educational requirements expected of RNs (in short the BSN) which place an emphasis on math and sciences. Two subjects historically which Latino and African American students do poorly on average.
    That seems like a pretty lame excuse to not get a BSN, additional math and science. For most programs there will be one additional math class to take and a chemistry class or two. I feel there are other reasons, such as cost or having a Univ. program locally available.
    tyvin, LovinLife28, Fiona59, and 1 other like this.
  5. 2
    Quote from Stephalump
    I read a different study about this; apparently ADN programs educated over half of minority nurses, and researchers don't predict the majority of minorities will head on over to BSN programs if the bar is set higher.

    Which, of course, takes away a great opportunity for at-risk young (and older) people to reach higher, find success, and break the cycle of poverty.
    Does setting the bar higher keep minorities out or would it help reduce the glut of nurses in the future? Would it make it less likely that people jump into nursing because of unrealistic ideas of the profession or make it more likely there will be better trained nurses as new grads?
    Szasz_is_Right and Fiona59 like this.
  6. 0
    Quote from HM-8404
    That seems like a pretty lame excuse to not get a BSN, additional math and science. For most programs there will be one additional math class to take and a chemistry class or two. I feel there are other reasons, such as cost or having a Univ. program locally available.
    That makes the assumption students arrive at college prepared and or are capable of handling BofS degree level math and science. Sadly in many areas of this country, and NYC is one of them they are not. This is especially true of public school graduates.

    This is Hunter-Bellevue's undergraduate/Generic Pathway BSN

    :Generic Pathway — Hunter College

    The organic chemistry at Hunter is the same for all health,nursing and allied sciene majors including those seeking a pre-med degree. It is not taught as "chemistry for nurses" but a full frontal chem class. That by nature means one must have a firm grip on algebra and have completed general chemistry either at a college level or taken same in high school that will be accepted.

    Historically many students seeking to avoid strong chemistry classes went the AAS/ADN route since those programs often did not require organic or even general chem. Every program is different and there are or were diploma programs going back decades that had a decent chemistry requirement.

    CUNY (The City University system of NYC) provides very affordable ADN and BSN programs, many such as Hunter-Bellevue are top ranking not only nationally but state wide. However more and more for both you are seeing greater numbers of students either not making the cut to gain entry or failing to graduate due to retention problems. If the BSN is made mandatory for entry either via state law or simply out of hospital hiring practices you are going to find fewer minority nurses unless things change at the primary and secondary education level.
  7. 0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    That makes the assumption students arrive at college prepared and or are capable of handling BofS degree level math and science. Sadly in many areas of this country, and NYC is one of them they are not. This is especially true of public school graduates.

    This is Hunter-Bellevue's undergraduate/Generic Pathway BSN

    :Generic Pathway — Hunter College

    The organic chemistry at Hunter is the same for all health,nursing and allied sciene majors including those seeking a pre-med degree. It is not taught as "chemistry for nurses" but a full frontal chem class. That by nature means one must have a firm grip on algebra and have completed general chemistry either at a college level or taken same in high school that will be accepted.

    Historically many students seeking to avoid strong chemistry classes went the AAS/ADN route since those programs often did not require organic or even general chem. Every program is different and there are or were diploma programs going back decades that had a decent chemistry requirement.

    CUNY (The City University system of NYC) provides very affordable ADN and BSN programs, many such as Hunter-Bellevue are top ranking not only nationally but state wide. However more and more for both you are seeing greater numbers of students either not making the cut to gain entry or failing to graduate due to retention problems. If the BSN is made mandatory for entry either via state law or simply out of hospital hiring practices you are going to find fewer minority nurses unless things change at the primary and secondary education level.
    Nope. This statement was stating the additional math and science classes required for a BSN over an ADN. I completed the ADN pre-reqs then went on to complete the BSN pre-reqs. In math I had to take Pre-Cal Algebra, which was the next math class above what was required for the ADN. The additional science was Inorganic Chemistry. Anyone that can pass Microbiology can pass Inorganic Chem. Some programs also require Organic Chemistry but not all.

    I never took Chemistry in high school. It was not required when I graduated in 1982. If I can pass Chemistry after being out of school for over 28 years I feel pretty sure someone that is a more recent grad can also, irregardless of their skin color.
  8. 4
    Quote from HM-8404
    never took Chemistry in high school. It was not required when I graduated in 1982. If I can pass Chemistry after being out of school for over 28 years I feel pretty sure someone that is a more recent grad can also, irregardless of their skin color.
    Do we need another lecture on that horrible word usage?????

    It doesn't have anything to do with genetics. The problem is minorities are disproportionally located in impoverished areas of the country, which usually have low quality grade school education. Being out of high school for 20 years is far different than having a substandard education PreK-12. If an underprivileged, under educated student was to make it to an ADN program, developmental courses will probably be needed.

    For instance, my ADN program only requires us to be eligible to take college algebra. We don't actually have to take it. So if a student comes in who has no grasp of algebra, they'll need to take 3 developmental math courses to come up to speed.

    Our local BSN programs require College Algebra and Statistcs, which would mean 3 developmental courses, plus college algebra, plus chemistry, plus statistics. Add in any other developmental courses and that can be quite a heavy load.

    Doable? Of course, regardless of skin color. But it's about more than ability. It's about a cultural/familial belief in that ability, and how far outside the norm one is required to get there.

    Quote from HM-8404

    Does setting the bar higher keep minorities out or would it help reduce the glut of nurses in the future? Would it make it less likely that people jump into nursing because of unrealistic ideas of the profession or make it more likely there will be better trained nurses as new grads?
    If cheaper, more accessible programs were eliminated, I'd be willing to wager they'd quickly be replaced by expensive, accessible programs a la for-profit schools. As long as the demand for nursing spots is high, someone will find a way to meet that demand. Would that keep minorities out? I think so. Would it reduce the glut? Maybe, but I don't think by much.
    Last edit by TheCommuter on Jul 10, '12 : Reason: quotation blocks
    silenced, Fiona59, Not_A_Hat_Person, and 1 other like this.
  9. 2
    To respond and defend my bankruptcy statement:
    I was only a little bit joking when I state to file banckruptcy.

    I did file bankruptcy due to 2 of the reasons posted; job loss and the need to save my house. My job loss- nursing has done some pretty low things over these past 5 years but nothing as so low as to condone the harassment of a nurse by by a pack of CNA's simply because the nurse happened to be of a different race. My sticking up for that nurse against the insubordination of the CNA's in their refusal to help that nurse's patient off a beside commode while that nurse went to the lab to pickup a unit of blood is what got me fired. Nursing can't even support it's own doctrine nor the federal laws in this country. Does tell any of us how corrupt this nursing and healthcare system of ours is?? Little suprise CEO's are making multimillion dollars paydays!!! Little did I know about the shutting out of the older RN's from the hospitals that was going on at that time. It wasn't until I read some where where older nurse's were having difficulty finding employment and were being systematic and underhandedly terminated. Then my own termination began to make sense- I know I did the right thing so what was wrong with this picture? I wrote a 65 papge letter of complaint to the EEOC, and state dept of labor about this insident with names, dates and times. State investigators did go into this hospital unit and investigate. The hospital was made to re educate their staff on cultural sensitivity and the culprit cried like a baby to the lawyer from the EEOC- some one should have brought her a bedside commode and refused to help her off it!!

    Eight months later, many interviews and all my savings gone, I finally got a new position- perdeim; big deal but it was something and sporadic at that. It was with this, that I realized nursing was not hiring. Then came the backruptcy.

    Bankruptcy has not held me back from employment- my age has. The more I researched and read the more alarming this has become. This was not just happening to older nurses but to 54% of the over 50 workforce in this country, sepecially out in Silicone Valley of California- BS/BA's. MS/MA's and Phd's.

    Even with the backruptcy- I was able to secure a temp position that required a top security clearance to work for the military. The US federal investigator doing the clearance couldn't have cared less about the bankruptcy. Military planes and tanks are alittle too big to put into one's pocket or purse. The position did not require giving out meds- one of my most hated chores in nursing anyway-no more eating lunch and guzzling coffee on the med cart!!(boo hoo) I actually got a real lunch and pee break.


    I did not at the time have any credit card debt and still don't. Banckruptcy stops your bill collectors from calling and harassing you. You do not have to give up all you own unless you want to. There are different kinds of backruptcy( Chapt 7, chapt 11, chapt 13 and more) I have applied for no loans. And my temp positions are only traceable if I chose to put them on a resume.I have learned not to put them on my resumes and for the reason of- nurse managers(young and old) get their panties in a bunch and state moron, idiot, condesending, schoolgirl comments like "how did you get that position?" or "is that an agency position" "are they paying you by the chart" What jealous A*****es. Moral of this story- don't push an old boomer out of their job, you never know what nursing experience they may pickup, it doesn't keep us down and you just might not like it!!!! Boomers have some mega awesome nursing experience that can carry them places nurse managers never dreamed of. Even into areas that would normally require a Master's level education!!! One of my temp positions did. I was told by a younger nurse manager to not put one of my temp positions on my resume- "put it at the bottom of the resume labeled as an'internship'" (LOL).

    Is my payrate the same as when I had my hosptial position- No. I am working for new grad pay. The positions are not out there in hospitals in my area for nurses my age nor are they out there for any nurse to jump into. They only exist for those who have managed to keep them through all this fiasco. The boomers who have these high paying nursing positions have them because of their years of experience and seniority- top of their payscale. If those boomers were to leave those positions tomorrow- those very same positions would not be commanding those high pay rates. The position payrate would be based on the experience level of the nurse hired to replace. So holding out for boomers to leave will not guarentee a less experienced nurse the high payrate of the boomer nurse with mega experience. The rate will be dropped down considerable and based on that 3-5 yrs experience.
    Last edit by kcmylorn on Jul 10, '12
    smartnurse1982 and koi310 like this.
  10. 0
    Quote from HM-8404
    Nope. This statement was stating the additional math and science classes required for a BSN over an ADN. I completed the ADN pre-reqs then went on to complete the BSN pre-reqs. In math I had to take Pre-Cal Algebra, which was the next math class above what was required for the ADN. The additional science was Inorganic Chemistry. Anyone that can pass Microbiology can pass Inorganic Chem. Some programs also require Organic Chemistry but not all.

    I never took Chemistry in high school. It was not required when I graduated in 1982. If I can pass Chemistry after being out of school for over 28 years I feel pretty sure someone that is a more recent grad can also, irregardless of their skin color.
    It is not possible to make a vaild argument based upon your education nearly thirty years ago versus what students receive today. Even if your's was obtained from the very same school in an urban area am willing to bet things have changed greatly in the three decades since you attended. I've had the pleasure of waiting in line at a check out counter whilst the cashier who is of an age one assumes is either a current high school student or recent graduate cannot do sums to save her or his life. Meanwhile an older adult in one case an elderly gentleman not only did the sums but in his head without the benefit of paper/pen nor caculator.

    But don't take my word for it: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/ed...24winerip.html

    And you can "Google" to find plenty of similar reports.

    Just making it into a two year degree program in NYC requires hurdles you never saw thirty years ago. Most all schools now require SAT scores and or NLN, TEAS. Even if the GPA minimum for entry is 2.5,many programs now are increasing that to 3.0 for sciences.


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