MSN for Non-nurses, your opinion... - page 3
I know that I am setting myself up for some serious criticism in this forum, but what do you think of NP programs for people who are not yet nurses? Since I have 2 sisters who are RN's I have gotten... Read More
Mar 22, '01Dear Chris and others like you:
Those of us who are REAL Nurses by degree, licensure, and practice-have little if any respect for those who come into the profession as an afterthought and try to profit off the hard work of the REAL RN's who have come and gone long before you.
Indeed, we are recognizing now that those that come into our profession with a BS or MS in other non nursing fields are gaining these delusional credentials through our hard work professionally, and legislatively.
Do you think you got those prescriptive rights you so superiorly wave around by an act of a magic wand? No, Chris. they are bought and paid for by the REAL NURSES who have been paying dues to ANA, and others SNA's and specialty NURSING organizations for YEARS to promote our profession and advance us legislatively.
You should be THANKING us for your job and the wanna be physician glory you seem to basking in, not trying to convince [yourself?] that you are among the same caliper as those who have advanced themselves via legitimate nursing practice and education, or better than those who choose to continue to provide clinically based nursing care.
And yes, Chris-RN's DO indeed utilize the entire nursing process in assessing and intervening on our patients behalf-take a peek into any critical care unit or ER from behind your desk and watch real nurses in action saving lives based upon their critical assessment and interventional skills.
To actually suggest that RN's do not have an understanding of physiology, pharmacology, diagnosis, etc., is so pompous and WRONG
I shall end here because I just realized educating you is not my problem.
More appropriate would be PRAYER for the patients entrusted to the wanna be MD's who call themselves NP's.
Mar 22, '01I have read most of these postings and what I find most ironic is that its NURSE practitioner. This is just another example of how the nursing profession continues to pull itself down. If you look in any nursing magazine you will find numerous listing and programs on how to advance your "nursing" career. From LPN to RN, From RN to BSN, from RN to MSN, and from "do it by mail", to "do it on line." If I keep looking I'm afraid I will find an UAP to RN program and probably it can be completed as a correspondence course with a weekend clinical. Where will it end, probably when they certify any college graduate that knows what the initials RN stand for as a NP. I can say I am certainly biased as I have come from a traditional 4 yr. BSN program, but I give you this thought. Logic would say that before you become an Advanced practice nurse (NPs,CNMs, CNAs), you should be a nurse, and not just by initials but by experience gained in the trenches. How can we promote our profession when there are so many inconsistencies across the Nursing field. I have met and worked with many competent and professional nurses that came to our profession from various communities using the back roads and two lane highways and I have no problem with that, but I sure would like to see them leaving on the same interstate. This road would have many off-ramps (NP, CNM, CS) but no on-ramp other than the one coming from the community of REGISTERED NURSE.
Mar 22, '01Holy cow people!!! If I wanted to hear all this ******** and complaining, I would go to work!!!
Mar 22, '01[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris-FNP:
[B]An RN does not utilize his/her knowledge of the pathphysiology of disease to diagnose and treat medical illnesses on a daily basis. An RN does not understand the intensive pharmacology involved, nor have a DEA number, to prescribe medications on a daily basis. An RN's role and an NP's role, IN REALITY, are completely different.
How can you, a non-nurse sit there & tell us what we do or do not do or understand as Registered Nurses? The only thing true about your comment above is that as a direct-care Rn in a hospital ICU, I do not have a DEA number and do not prescribe - yet. However, we are the ones who inform the MDs which drugs to consider & in what dosages. We not only know & understand pharmacology & the pathophysiology of diseases- some of which you may never even see in your entire practice, we also diagnose & treat on a daily basis. Do you think the NP is the only NURSE to use the NURSING process??? How arrogant can you be in thinking that because you do a different NURSING job, you are the only kind of nurse who understands nursing. And what you just described IS nursing. The problem is you as a non-nurse have no concept of what RNs are or the work they do. But what can we expect from programs that bring in non-nurses & tells them they are the experts.
Mar 22, '01Since I started this whole thing, I wanted to clatify one point(although it most likely will not matter to any of you). Even though the graduates that these programs produce are ultimately NP's or CNS's, each person must become and RN at some point in the program. Also, these students are encouraged to work as RN's both while going to school and during the summers, and in some programs 32 hrs a week is required. Personally, one year working as an RN is nothing when compared with 20 years as one, but that is all that is required for entrance into most NP programs for RN's. Just because the decision to continue through the masters degree has been made at the beginning does not mean that these graduates have less education than some other NP students. But you probably think that these RN's haven't put enough time in either.
Mar 22, '01Originally posted by mud:
[B]Holy cow people!!! If I wanted to hear all this ******** and complaining, I would go to work!!!
Mar 22, '01Oh, come on now Chris, you and Patty just about had me won over on the idea of these programs... Then came the remark about us RNs not understanding pharm and patho... now I am going to have to be bitter about these programs and their grads for a few more days.
Seriously, I wasn't aware of the time you had to work as a nurse and that has changed my opinion quite a bit.
Mar 23, '01
Patty makes the point that her particular bridge program, that allows non nurses to become practicing NP's in a period of 2-3 years requires that after ONE year, they are eligible to sit for the RN boards and obtain an RN license.
Then they get to work if they choose as an RN until the next year when they can become NP's.
I see this as incredibly scary, and unsafe.
WHY is it OK for someone with a BS in accounting [or other non nurse career] to require only ONE year of RN training before they sit for the boards & practice?
In addition, I think this is program specific. This is not an across the board requirement.
My bet is most programs do not have this work as an RN after one year provision.
I am going to contact a few of my colleagues in the nursing education and advocacy community and ask them how we can find out.
If anyone else can take the time to contact their local bridge programs and ask them to provide them with program requirements, contact, etc.-and give us the feedback, it would be a great research project for us.
And Patty, you are right-the "general community" [AKA poor innocent unsuspecting patients] may not know about the difference-as we did not-but is incumbent upon those of us who now do to educate them accordingly.
Mar 23, '01You know, the comment about pathophysiology and pharmacology was not meant to be insulting. Moreover, everyone seems to have ignored the fact that I said I integrate nursing into my practice...as any good NP should.
This is ridiculous. Most of what I have posted was a defense to what is being said about my degree. You people (well, some people) take what I have said as a personal attack. Learn to debate.
I am a nurse, first and foremost. If I'm not one's idea of the "ideal" nurse, then get over it and find something else to whine about because our programs are growing in number and continue to produce good NPs.
Back to the pathophysiology and pharmacology comment. Not that this even matters, but, RNs do not study these subjects in the the same depth as NPs...period. This is not an insulting comment.
I personally do not appreciate the kind of personal comments made about me. This is a debate people. Treat it like a debate. A good debate fosters a better understanding of a subject and if you cannot participate in a mature fashion then keep your comments to yourself.
I have never insulted the nursing profession or the RN's role. I have simply defended my institution and explained how most NPs function in today's healthcare system.
Much of what has been said here in this thread just proves the point that most of the people that complain are older RNs that have practiced for years and are now bitter because there are new programs out there that run against the traditional grain of nursing. Let's open our minds a bit and accept things for the way they are today.
Here is another option...spend a day with an NP from one of these "bridge" programs and give he or she a real chance to show what they can do. If you have not done that, then you really have no right to criticize anybody.
[This message has been edited by Chris-FNP (edited March 23, 2001).]
Mar 23, '01SeasonedRN,
Before you make blanket accusations regarding the safe practice of "bridge" program NPs, why don't you spend a day with one and watch he or she practice. The comments you make about "poor unsuspecting patients" is just low. You have no idea how well we function. Its your opinion. You do not have any concrete data to support your accusations other than your own personal beliefs about how NPs should be educated.
Obviously, these programs are successful because they produce very competent NPs.
I am not implying that you are not entitled to your opinion, but to make outright accusations and to say that the patient's safety is in jeopardy...well, that's just unfair, especially when you are just speculating.
If we have to use a comparison, its like saying that PAs are putting patient's at risk. PAs go to school for about the same time. This is just an example regarding safety, I am not comparing the way PAs and NPs practice.
Who do you think has the right to be an NP? Only someone with 25 years of RN experience? That's absurd and such an elitist belief. I had less than one year of experience as an RN prior to becoming an NP, and I am doing very well.
I define "well" as providing quality care to people in need. I do this in a safe and effective manner with the support of the supervising physician as needed. Patients enjoy seeing me and the physicians in the practice trust my judgement. As a matter of fact, there are two NPs in the practice and we both attended "bridge" programs.
[This message has been edited by Chris-FNP (edited March 23, 2001).]
Mar 23, '01wildtime88,
I hear what you say and I want to clarify some things. This thread is getting out of control and the way I replied in some of my posts can be interpreted in ways that make me sound like I am putting down RNs...THAT IS NOT THE CASE!!!
I spent 1 1/2 years on hospital floors as an RN student and almost a year as a working RN. I know the role after almost 2 1/2 years. What is the amount of RN experience required before one is able (in your eyes) to be an NP?
"Bridge" programs do not ignore traditional RN duties or experience. The time spent as an RN is obviously less, but, we learn the role and take the NCLEX. A lot of us, I hope, then work as RNs while we finish our education. By the time we actually get our first NP job, we probably have 2-3 years under our belt as an RN student and practicing RN.
Mar 23, '01SeasonedRN,
You sound angry. Anger is such a useless emotion. You should try being more open-minded to "bridge" NPs. Most of us, if you gave us a chance, would probably suprise you. We're a lot better nurses than you give us credit for.
Chris-RN-FNP (There, is that better?)
Mar 24, '01Originally posted by RHinesRN:
I have read most of these postings and what I find most ironic is that its NURSE practitioner. This is just another example of how the nursing profession continues to pull itself down. If you look in any nursing magazine you will find numerous listing and programs on how to advance your "nursing" career. From LPN to RN, From RN to BSN, from RN to MSN, and from "do it by mail", to "do it on line." If I keep looking I'm afraid I will find an UAP to RN program and probably it can be completed as a correspondence course with a weekend clinical. Where will it end, probably when they certify any college graduate that knows what the initials RN stand for as a NP. I can say I am certainly biased as I have come from a traditional 4 yr. BSN program, but I give you this thought. Logic would say that before you become an Advanced practice nurse (NPs,CNMs, CNAs), you should be a nurse, and not just by initials but by experience gained in the trenches. How can we promote our profession when there are so many inconsistencies across the Nursing field. I have met and worked with many competent and professional nurses that came to our profession from various communities using the back roads and two lane highways and I have no problem with that, but I sure would like to see them leaving on the same interstate. This road would have many off-ramps (NP, CNM, CS) but no on-ramp other than the one coming from the community of REGISTERED NURSE.
I have a MFT (marriage and family therapist) friend who contemplated in a playful way going to PA school so that she could prescribe anti-depressants. I was stunned. Why would you do a lot of things you didn't care about (learn to do medical H & P's, take a peds rotation, take a ob rotation) if you wanted to do one discreet thing--Prescribe psychotropics. But it dawned on me that people who go for these MSN entry level programs likely have a different set of motives than I did when I entered my diploma program 24 years ago.
I guess I want to say that perhaps these entry level programs have a place for people who know they want an advanced practice role. But I share some of RHinesRN's concerns. I think these folks with previous BA's and BSN's do bring some legitimate life experiences to our profession and we need to provide them mutliple ways to get where they are going, including accelerated MSN access BUT I worry about what I read in nursing magazines. Professions SHOULD guard their entry into practice and nursing has got to be the only profession who keeps building more and different shaped gates into the profession. I worry about the RN's I know who were EMICT's and took a correspondence course and did observation clinicals to get the title. These are NLN accredited courses of studies. This is nursing being very cavalier with how they allow our credential to be obtained. I don't think this person knows squat about nursing process. (He probably does understand the business end of a bed pan, but I am not so worried about that skill....)
Anyhow, I wish nursing would think more carefully about this issue. One thing a profession does is guard access to ability to use the professional title and I think we've gotten sloppy about that.
Just a thought.