Medication Nurse Assistants - page 3

Hi everyone. I just found out that an MNA will be working on our 50 bed LTC unit:eek: ! Has anyone worked with an MNA? I'm a new LPN, just got used to passing meds to 25 pts, and am really on the... Read More

  1. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from dkp59
    You know some of you nurses are closed minded. I'm glad when I was a CMA I had some great LPN and RNs that helped me grow into the LPN I am today. Yes I passed pills in LTC and if I didn't understand something I could go ask but tell me what LPN or RN knows all the answer to everything tell me what doctor knows everything. Open your mind and the world would be a better place.
    Sorry, but some of us are not "closed minded", merely mindful of the danger for the patient that CMAs pose.

    I refuse to work in facility that uses CMAs. I would permit a CMA to pass meds only if they bear full and complete responsibility for any med error that they make.
  2. by   NicInNC
    Quote from meghanrn
    :quote:
    "you know some of you nurses are closed minded. i'm glad when i was a cma i had some great lpn and rns that helped me grow into the lpn i am today. yes i passed pills in ltc and if i didn't understand something i could go ask but tell me what lpn or rn knows all the answer to everything tell me what doctor knows everything. open your mind and the world would be a better place."

    i know im just jumping into this discussion, but im another one who really isnt for someone else, who is unlicensed, passing my meds. however- in response to the above quote, im so glad you would ask if you didnt understand something, but i highly doubt every person will. there lies the problem..someone going to school for nursing is more likely to ask questions pertaining to the meds then just some person who has no medical/ nursing background.

    i do have a question though regarding this- can a cma pass every type of med or just po meds? curious, since in the hospital i worked in lpn's couldn't give iv pushes, so are they allowing a cma to do this? if so i would have an even greater problem with this..

    just curious...very contraversal topic here.

    -meghan

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    "to the world you may just be one person; to one person, you may just be the world"
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    i work at an assisted living facility and we don't have nurses on duty during my shift (2nd). the cna ii is my supervisor. we have med techs and they do the med passes. the residents in my facility only take po meds or insulin injections. the med techs do both of these.

    i'm not sure what med techs are allowed to pass/do in a hospital setting.
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I happen to think there really is no role for an unlicensed person to administer medications except in the private home situation---not even in LTC, do I believe this should be done. Elderly are very vulnerable and subject to adverse effects from meds, as much so as children are.

    I echo the others here who are so alarmed and concerned about safe medication administration and never have taken this duty lightly. I,too, am not interested in working in any facility that uses unlicensed personnel to do such an important and crucial task.
  4. by   sjrn85
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Sorry, but some of us are not "closed minded", merely mindful of the danger for the patient that CMAs pose.

    I refuse to work in facility that uses CMAs. I would permit a CMA to pass meds only if they bear full and complete responsibility for any med error that they make.
    Which won't happen, because they don't have a license that stands on its own.
  5. by   txspadequeenRN
    It has nothing to do with being closed minded. But it has everything to do with protecting our arse and the license we worked so hard for!!!!!!!!



    Quote from dkp59
    You know some of you nurses are closed minded. I'm glad when I was a CMA I had some great LPN and RNs that helped me grow into the LPN I am today. Yes I passed pills in LTC and if I didn't understand something I could go ask but tell me what LPN or RN knows all the answer to everything tell me what doctor knows everything. Open your mind and the world would be a better place.
  6. by   yarncrogirl
    Hi
    I am a cna and I am also going to Nursing school to be a LPN. I don't like the idea of Med techs either. Especially now that I see just how much we have to know as nurses. Also there is no way I am going to risk my licence either, when I get one that is, by letting a Cna pass meds. I wouldn't want an unlicenced person giving any of my family members medication either. I want someone who took the dosage calculations and pharmacology classes to do that. So I too will remain closed minded.
    Yarn
  7. by   hope3456
    Not to be the devil's advocate, but I am a RN charge nurse in LTC on the night shift. I work with a very ignorant LPN - as well as have followed some from the evening shift. I also was following an RN who got fired recently b/c she made so many med errors. I do not know where these certain nurses got their training or how they passed the boards. A couple from eve shift prepour medications for certain residents, forget to give them, and leave them in the cart for the next nurse to deal with. I have reported this happening and nothing was done - it continues to happen. My NOCS LPN appears to have no idea how to dress a wound. Some of the questions that a couple of them have asked me about meds makes me concerned - very basic questions that they should already know. I am not generalizing ALL the nurses, just a few individuals.

    Anyway, I am in colorado, and I have a CNA working under me that just moved here from Kansas, where she was a med aide. Colorado does not utilize them. According to her, she took a 4 month training class covering a range of topics including pharmacology- not just a 20hr class like everyone is assuming. I hate to say it, but she really knows alot about meds. She has even told me some things about different medications - about the metabolism of them ect. that I have to say I didn't know - she kindve blew me out of the water! She also knows alot about assessment and picks up on changes of condition really fast and seems to already know what to do about them, i.e. what med to give, when to call Dr., ect. Not that she does - but makes good suggestions. I have to say, I have been pretty impressed.

    I think this situation is ironic and I feel bad that this CNA gets no credit for what she knows or her experience, just b/c the variance of laws from state to state. Oh, and did I mention she has a degree in cellular biology? She has more education than I do but gets paid 1/2 what I make.

    I don't know much about how the med aide situation really works - never actually worked with one directly - and I'm sure whether they could work safely or not depends upon the situation. In acute care, i wouldn't advocate for them. In LTC, I could definately see how they could be utilized, if they get proper training, are competent and are assisting the nurse, not taking the place of. Experience and education level should be considered. However, alot of the CNA's that work in my facility are waiting to get into nursing school and have taken all their prereq's/health science classes. A couple even have bachelors degrees. most are intelligent and eager to learn (and very capapble of), and I think they could be better utilized. Also, you can take pharmacology classes in other places besides nursing school.

    I could be wrong on all this, I don't have first hand experience with the med aides. However, if a couple of the LPN's I work with and this CNA/med aide were to compete in a competency evaluation, I would put my money on the med aide.
  8. by   cjcsoon2bnp
    I know I am really late in this discussion but I just thought I would add my 2 cents. I am not an RN or LPN or CNA or anything like that, just a nursing student right now. But here is my thoughts....

    I understand why the RN's and LPN's are as concerned as they are about the MNA situation. You don't want to have the risk of someone who is not certified or have a license make a critical mistake that could fall on you because you are above them. I definately can understand that, it makes perfect sence. I just hope that you try to band together and do something about this issue with the administration and government that lets this happen and not the attack the MNA's themselves. I understand they do not have your training and experience, and what there doing is extremely dangerous. But they are doing there job. I know that there are incompentent MNA's just like there are RN's, LPN's, CNA's etc. and that can't be tolerated. I guess what I mean is, just make sure your attacking the issue and not the people trapped in the system too.
  9. by   txspadequeenRN
    I have posted this sitution several times on other threads. I am a LVN weekend staffing supervisor that also works as a medication nurse for 2 busy halls one being hospice. Now, I have the task as well of doing clinical with student med- aides. In Texas all that is required is 10 hours of clinical .....10 hours !!!! This should never be a on the job training ordeal but thats what it becomes... I have only been with 1 student that coud correctly tell my what some of the names of the drugs were for . If they are BP drugs, forget them knowing you need to take a BP first... Several of them were looking for Colace in the locked box and Vicoden in the regualr meds. Not one of them knew what dig was for or to hold it if the pulse was below a certain number.:uhoh21: All of them left the cart unlocked ,keys in the cart and records open. When i would say "I think you forgot a couple of things", they would say "like what".... Are ya kidding me , isnt that passing pills 101.. I had one that was to give Roxanol 0.5 to a dying patient she said "ok 5 cc right" There is no knowledge of the disease process that goes behind giving the med. Heck , they coudnt even tell me what the meds were for so, how can I expect them to know anything about disease processes. After 10 hours of this they are cut loose to work on the floor. That is when the real test comes , your own your own no one to stand behind you and correct your mistakes , no one to give you reminders and tips. Now I am fully aware we have RN's and LVN's that cant tie their shoes and make med errors left and right ,but geeeeeezzzzz. My intent here is not to put anyone down but, these are just the facts from my training experiences... it just scares the red right off my hair...
  10. by   worldtraveler
    This CMA/MNA is another concept whose genesis should not see the Light of Day; a 10-20 hr. Med course and they are turned loose on the Floor with Live Patients???? LOL, I should say COL (crying out loud). I had to take a Penna (state mandated course--out of school)NAPNES Med course(120 hours, didactic and clinical)and another 4 credit Med course in school and when I moved to Florida another IV Med course 30 credits(offered by state of Florida) or else I would have been unable to work here in Florida. What concerns me is that these CMAs/MNAs do not have the courses in Pharmodynamics that would also help them understand the Logic and outcome of WHY they are dispensing this Med or that Med. And without the Anatomy and Physiology courses they would be unable to fathom the Pharmodynamics concerning Medications. No way Jose! Not under my license. I remember a few years ago, and this applies again to Hospitals and Clinics using unlicensed/unqualified Personnel in attempts to improve the bottom $$$ line without regard to patient safty. A Doc I knew very well for many years gave an order(written) for 10u of Regular Insulin for BS>300 mg/dl. He had(still has) lousy handwriting(sound familiar? ha ha). The Pharm Tech who filled the Orders(also unlicensed and Never went to school for this-was a school secretary before) mis-copied the Insulin Order as/for 100u Regular Insulin(prn order for BG>300 mg/dl. This 100u Reg. Insulin would have dropped an Elephant for the count and the Unlicensed and Unschooled Tech who filled the order had NO CLUE. I caught this glaring error otherwise it may have been "Hasta La Vista" for the patient! This type of error unfortunately happened many many times in this clinic over the years with unschooled and unlicensed personnel. The point is-people without the supporting science and lengthy med courses and Practical Experience have no business dispensing either Oral, Topical, Inhalation, Injectable or IV Meds ect. I know they are few exceptions to the Rule as was mentioned and it is true, LPNs/RNs make Med Errors, but these practioners can be held accountable whereas the CMA/MNA cannot. Bad idea! Sorry if I offend anyone but I may be a Pt in hospital they are employed in and speaking for myself I wouldn't want this employee passing me my Meds.

    We here in Florida had a recent bad experience with our Governor Jeb Bush Caving in to special Interest Groups. He signed into law a short time ago, a law where A person other then a CRNA can administer and monitor anesthesiology in the OR or Clinics(plastic surgeons have a rich powerful lobby and they were the ones who pushed for the law. Jeb Bush never met a Campaign Dollar he didn't like). This person, I believe they are called CAA(cert. anethesetic Assts.) go to school maybe for 1-2 yr and they are deemed ready. CRNA 5+ years of Schooling and they have in most cases, a lot of Floor Experience. We fought this Law Tooth and Nail(various nursing groups in florida) but the Governor(jeb bush) and his Representatives listened to everyone but the Docs and the Nurses. The outcome of this Law should be interesting to observe.As long as your not a Patient or the Doc,under whose licenses they will be working under.
  11. by   txspadequeenRN
    Let me add in here before I get hammered, that in Texas to complete the Med aide program it is 3 months (part-time) in length ,but this includes theory and the 10 hours of required clinical.


    Quote from txspadequeen921
    I have posted this sitution several times on other threads. I am a LVN weekend staffing supervisor that also works as a medication nurse for 2 busy halls one being hospice. Now, I have the task as well of doing clinical with student med- aides. In Texas all that is required is 10 hours of clinical .....10 hours !!!! This should never be a on the job training ordeal but thats what it becomes... I have only been with 1 student that coud correctly tell my what some of the names of the drugs were for . If they are BP drugs, forget them knowing you need to take a BP first... Several of them were looking for Colace in the locked box and Vicoden in the regualr meds. Not one of them knew what dig was for or to hold it if the pulse was below a certain number.:uhoh21: All of them left the cart unlocked ,keys in the cart and records open. When i would say "I think you forgot a couple of things", they would say "like what".... Are ya kidding me , isnt that passing pills 101.. I had one that was to give Roxanol 0.5 to a dying patient she said "ok 5 cc right" There is no knowledge of the disease process that goes behind giving the med. Heck , they coudnt even tell me what the meds were for so, how can I expect them to know anything about disease processes. After 10 hours of this they are cut loose to work on the floor. That is when the real test comes , your own your own no one to stand behind you and correct your mistakes , no one to give you reminders and tips. Now I am fully aware we have RN's and LVN's that cant tie their shoes and make med errors left and right ,but geeeeeezzzzz. My intent here is not to put anyone down but, these are just the facts from my training experiences... it just scares the red right off my hair...
  12. by   suebird3
    This whole concept for Illinois got voted down big time. With all the variences in training.......wouldn't fly.

    I did read that thread about the molecular biologist, etc......but this is not the norm. Correct me if I am wrong. But what is amazing: we go to school, pass through hurdles to take a test that is nationally recognized.....and the first poster is paid $3 less.

    Wolfy....I guess I echo your post.
  13. by   fluffwad
    Ohio recently passed a bill for med techs.............our facility is thinking about hiring a few. Personally I think this could be a good idea.......on some of our units, the nurses spend 40-50% of their day passing pills....and not having the time to take care of the issues like they should / keep track of the STNAs like they should / etc.

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