LPNs in ICU

Nurses General Nursing

Published

Our hospital recently brought LPNs into ICU, and we are having some trouble adjusting to the change. They were brought in to our units because we have lost so many RNs recently, and have not been able to replace them. Please don't think I am putting LPNS down, I am not. I was an LPN for four years before I was an RN, and I have a great deal of respect for them. The two that have come in to the unit are sweet wonderful girls with a lot of knowledge and they work very hard. The real problem is the limitations placed on them In our state LPNs are not allowed to give IV pushes, hang blood, or hang and titrate drips. They cannot measure hemodynamics, and cannot take verbal orders from a physician. So an RN must do all of these tasks for them, as well as take on a full patient load of her own. The LPNs get very frustrated too when they need something done for their patient and the RN who is supposed to be covering her can't get away from her own patient to handle a problem. We have tried to have an LPN and an RN share four patients, with the LPN doing meds and treatments, and the RN doing assessments, drips and the like, but this has not worked out either. To make matters worse, some of the RNs are hostile to the LPNs, and give them a hard time. Most of us have been supportive of them, but a small number of the RNs have made things difficult in numerous ways. Most of it is very subtle, and is difficult to take anything specific to our unit manager. A few of the docs have also expressed discomfort with the LPNs being in a critical care area. Again, I am not complaining about the LPNs, I am just looking for some feedback and advise on ways to organize care and make this situation a little easier on everyone.

Again the powers that be arent seeing the big picture. It seems they just said, "Let's start using LVN/LPN's but leave it up to the staff to find out how to utilize them in a critical setting. It is so political. It is unfair for both nurses. RN's have enough to contend with then to come behind another nurse making his or her work load much more difficult and the LVN who feels like he or she can't perform their job because of the stipulations of their scope. I know LVN/LPN are capable of doing a lot but their scope is limited I can see LVN\LPN being utilize in a step down unit and or team up with a RN to share duties that is in their scope but I see potential abuse in that too. I know there are no easy answers I just wish administrations would do the research and plan it thorougly before throwing them out to the wolves.

I have been an LPN for 27 years, I worked for 10 years in ICU. I am cccu certified, ekg,iv certified,have my acls,and pals certifications. Granted Iknow there are some things I can't do that an RN can, but don't I deserve the respect for what I do know. There are many LPN's out there with alot of knowledge, shouldn't we be respected for that. I am close to finishing my RN, but donot know if I want to anymore, a nursing instructor once told me " you can learn something new everyday from anyone, be it an rn,lpn, aide, md, cleaning person ,or faimly member" I have always tried to remember this. It seems that the rn's coming out of school think they have all the answers, we are beneath them, they would rather make a mistake than ask an lpn for advice. With the nursing shortage why doesn't someone look to the lpn with years of experience and find a way to get them there rn's?

originally posted by strawberrybsn

brownms...doesn't it seem a little "enlightenning" to you, that your responses to posts, myself included, are toned a little (lot) harsh?. i'm really not trying to pick on you. i do appreciate that you are thinking out of the box and really trying to understand the complexity of it all. i'm impressed you've got us all thinking. you'd be great in battling policies and procedures. but some of your responses, to me and others are equivelent to a bull-dog attack with a smiley face at the end. calm down a little...you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar.

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hmmmmmmmmm, is there then the assumption that lvn's cannot think, that they cannot perform complex tasks, cannot assist with care plans or critical care management?

personally speaking, a lot of lvn's( and yes i am one) are able to and often asked to provide input into the total care of the critical care patient. in some cases, physicians who have known you for years would rather have your input then a young rn's that they do not know.

i'm not sure, but i think that it's known as a matter of respect.

i have new grads that come to this "seasoned" lvn to ask about drugs ( how to give it, side reactions, the effects), ask about the primary and secondary diagnoses and possible interventions so that they can write their care plans adequately.

do i ,or anyone else, have all the answers---of course not.

we have all at some time has a "i don't know" from someone who was supposed tobe our resource person.

i, like brownms, have been offerred positions that we kindly bow out of. i do , however, love the look on the face of someone who has shunned you when a particular physician or supervisor comes to give you a hug and talk.

perhaps you might consider taking your own advice and place a little sugar around your comment.

being an rn does not equal a genius level iq and we can always equate strawberry to something else.

good thinking!!

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

EXCELLENT POSTS RNinICU,Teshiee,nkny, and

fadingyouth! BRAVO! !

I agree, with much of what you all have written! It a darn shame, that mangement can't see the complexity of what they have done to this unit! But soon they will discover, that have helped their remaining RNs and possibly the LPNs, they have thrown into this unworkable situation, to take their toys elsewhere. And who will suffer the most? The pts.! Maybe it's time for administrations across the country, to join with the Nursing Boards across the country, and develop realistic guidelines for the LPN, just as the LVN boards have. It has been proved that an LVN can and does work well in the critical care setting. But you can't put an LPN in that setting, and then tell them they can't do any of the skills needed! And then expect the RNs to assume the skills, the LPN can't do! I agree...that admin should have worked out this problem, before throwing these nurses into this mess

RNinICU....I'm afraid....the only thing your administration will listen to, is the patter of feet exiting the building.:o Sad...very sad.:o

Hi Brownie! I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable LVN/LPN'S and I think they can work out a solution but wont just keep nurses badgering against one another when both can contribute to giving best care possible. I know now that our powers that be do not have nurses in general our best interest at heart if they did this wouldn't even be an issue. It is a shame because we can learn from each other instead of disrespecting each other's title. :-) just my nickel's worth.

originally posted by strawberrybsn

i disagree that er rn's can't transition to ccu. don't we start the care that you finish? we may not "manage" day-to-day nursing care interventions, but we know how to. we may appear like we don't know much about ccu, but in fact...we do.

sbsn, please refer back to various posts by brownie, rninicu, myself where we describe in detail some of critical care patients. please ask yourself honestly.." do i as an er nurse really posess the competence to be responsible for these patients?" now be honest here....we're talkin' on the basis of your er experience alone.

i will repeat...er and icu are two different areas...i have done both so i feel justified. 'starting' the care does not equivocate 'providing critcal care'. i've had er nurses run not walk out of my unit when they realize what goes on there...and most of my er pals hate working icu...they prefer their 'in and out' world of er....with a doctor or two readily available to them. icu doesn't do 'in and out' nor do we have docs constantly available on the premesis. there's also nowhere else to go for our patients in icu....we have to handle whatever comes and stays....quite different than er who can turf 'em.

now i sense you're feeling a bit angry because brownie is confronting some of the things you are saying...i have to say i question some of your comments as well. perhaps you aren't realizing it, but some of your comments have come off like "what's the big deal here?" you've done this in other threads too...like the one about the cna calling herself "nurse judy" ...maybe you have not intended this attitude, as the written word doesn't always translate well...

whether an er nurse, lpn or rn is sent to be my 'helper' on a short icu shift, there comes a time when 'helpers' in lieau of competent practitioners will create an unsafe environment...critical care nurses can only be stretched so far in providing supervision to helpers. most of the critical care nurses in this forum have felt 4:1 carries an unacceptable liability and safety risk, and we are concerned for rninicu.

we need both competent icu nurses, and safe icu nurse-patient (2:1 core) ratios to provide today's level of icu care!

now...no more fightin', chilluns, can we talk????:kiss

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

Hi Teshiee..:),

Your input is a lot more valuable than a nickel...:cool:. You hit the nail on the head. No they don't have the nurse's best interest in mind, when they make situations like this. But in RNinICU's unit, they have made this mess, and now refused to admit it. They're trying to make it an RN/LPN problem...but it's not. It's fact that they're tying the hands of those LPNs in that unit, and want the RNs to take up the slack. And it's not fair to any of the nurses in that unit. Just like their interpretation of an LPN not being able to take verbal orders. They misintrepreted the boards statement, that LPNs can only take orders in emergent situations. Being in a ICU is emergent situation!

I think just as CA has modified the practice of LVNs, the state RNinICU is in...should do the same. If you're going to have LPNS in the unit...they should be able to do the skills in that unit. And not depend on overstretched, overburdened RNs. If they're there to stay...make it possible for them to do what is needed!

I can't even imagine the stress of being an RN in that unit! I would be sick from just thinking about going to work. On pins and needles wondering just how bad it might be! RNinICU wrote, that right now....there are no pts, that the LPNs could take, without a lot of assistance from the RNs. Now I have had pts. in the ICU, that had me running the whole time I was in the unit. I have walked and had pts, with so many lines, I had to follow them from the pt., and tag them. I couldn't imagine being an RN, with these pts, and covering for an LPNs with the same kinds of pts!!! Talk about overwhelming:eek: I have to appauld RNinICU for walking into that unit, everyday...knowing what is to come! But I also have to wonder...how long...will it be...before the pressure becomes too much to deal with???

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

mattsmom....YOU go with ya bad self..:chuckle

OOOh yeah..I forgot! Since I have worked in Level I trauma ERs,.... I know for a fact, .... "I" have never seen an Art Line or IABP insertion done while their in the ER! They're placed on the Vent, with RT managing them just as RNinICU stated! I want to know where an ER Nurse would gain the knowledge about complications of IABPs,(especially in certain pts), and have the experience of understanding timing, weaning, without being ICU trained??

:chuckle...I'm playing nice mattsmom...(hiding my typing fingers)...see..:kiss:

How about some humor ya'll to lighten the heavy load here, last week I (me an LPN) had to train an RN in ICU. we had a blast with the irony. she was wonderful to work with and I hope we get to work together often.What was really funny was I went to school with her son. anyway just thought that was funny hope everyone is doing well. question though will some of yall consider moving down here with me? we need a few good nurses. RNinICU you have a job here if you want night yall can you tell I have been up for over 24 hours.lol

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by stressedlpn

How about some humor ya'll to lighten the heavy load here, last week I (me an LPN) had to train an RN in ICU. we had a blast with the irony. she was wonderful to work with and I hope we get to work together often.What was really funny was I went to school with her son. anyway just thought that was funny hope everyone is doing well. question though will some of yall consider moving down here with me? we need a few good nurses. RNinICU you have a job here if you want night yall can you tell I have been up for over 24 hours.lol

Heyyy stressdlpn...:)!

Thanks for the break...:)! What a small world we live in, that you would end up working with the mom of a guy you know. Now go to bed...:chuckle

okey dokey I will try love to all kelli

originally posted by fadingyouth

originally posted by strawberrybsn

brownms...doesn't it seem a little "enlightenning" to you, that your responses to posts, myself included, are toned a little (lot) harsh?. i'm really not trying to pick on you. i do appreciate that you are thinking out of the box and really trying to understand the complexity of it all. i'm impressed you've got us all thinking. you'd be great in battling policies and procedures. but some of your responses, to me and others are equivelent to a bull-dog attack with a smiley face at the end. calm down a little...you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar.

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hmmmmmmmmm, is there then the assumption that lvn's cannot think, that they cannot perform complex tasks, cannot assist with care plans or critical care management?

personally speaking, a lot of lvn's( and yes i am one) are able to and often asked to provide input into the total care of the critical care patient. in some cases, physicians who have known you for years would rather have your input then a young rn's that they do not know.

i'm not sure, but i think that it's known as a matter of respect.

i have new grads that come to this "seasoned" lvn to ask about drugs ( how to give it, side reactions, the effects), ask about the primary and secondary diagnoses and possible interventions so that they can write their care plans adequately.

do i ,or anyone else, have all the answers---of course not.

we have all at some time has a "i don't know" from someone who was supposed tobe our resource person.

i, like brownms, have been offerred positions that we kindly bow out of. i do , however, love the look on the face of someone who has shunned you when a particular physician or supervisor comes to give you a hug and talk.

perhaps you might consider taking your own advice and place a little sugar around your comment.

being an rn does not equal a genius level iq and we can always equate strawberry to something else.

good thinking!!

fading beauty, i don't get your post to me here. i got that i should take my own advise on a comment i made and that strawberry equates to something else. ?????

i agree and you've got my vote...lpn's are often times the smartest on the team. i was a lpn for years before returning to school. i sometimes want to go back to being a lpn. i think i've posted many kudos' for my lpn peer's.

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