Lowering the Bar? - page 4
The school I'm going to has always used a 1+1 curriculum this means that to become an RN you have to first go threw an LPN program and get your LPN license. Altogether you have to take 40 credits of... Read More
Jul 14, '02Originally posted by MollyJ
RN-MSN programs always include completion of the BSN requirements and, as such, necessitate a longer time commitment than that required by a nurse who already possesses the BSN.
Sure, but it can be done. It requires two semesters of generalist nursing courses and then three semester sequences of courses in the delcared specialty. In your previous post you stated "An ADN cannot go on for the MSN. They must first do the RN to BSN program". That is untrue. I do not think that you are even awarded the BSN (I think you are just awarded the MSN) upon completion/graduation. I will call Vanderbilt to check on that though. The program sounds terrific and is a great way for RN's to become advanced practice nurses in a reasonable time frame. I'm so happy that these types of programs are available. I'm married to a military man and we never stay in one place longer than three years. I have to "step" everything I think!
~AngieLast edit by NurseAngie on Jul 14, '02
Jul 14, '02Well, I think this has been one of the most civil discussions of entry level I've seen.
I went the long slow route- LPN, ADN, BSN, MN- and had a BA to start with. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, but it worked for me. (I never dreamed of the MN when I started out). When anyone asks me how long I've been a nurse, I tell them since 1983- that's when I graduated from my practical nursing program. I still have my LPN education and jobs on my resume, too.
However, I do think that in an *ideal* world, BSN would be entry level. Not because I think that BSN programs turn out better nurses; as we've seen, there's a lot of variation among programs and between individuals. I *do* agree with the poster who said that it would give us, as a profession, a more professional "image." No, I don't think BSN nurses are necessarily more professional than ADN, diploma, or LPN nurses. However, most "professions," such as teaching, require a bachelor's degree and the general public knows that. I think, in an ideal world, that the strengths of all programs could be combined- the prerequisites, theory, management, etc. from BSN programs, and the clinical experience with an emphasis on skills from ADN and diploma programs. As someone else said, if a nurse graduates and starts work without the skills, yes he or she can learn them- but who has to teach them?? The already overworked, overburdened, stressed-out nurses already working!
This reminds me of the debate we had several times in my FNP program: are we practicing medicine, or nursing? I always said nursing, or at least medicine from a nursing point of view. Now I think I'd say that we all, from docs to nurses of all levels and I guess you'd include just about everyone else- we're all practicing patient care, or we should be.
Some see the 'leap' from RN to NP as a big one where you suddenly start going from one level to another. I don't see it that way. Non-NPs don't diagnose, legally. In actual fact, you do it every day! Non-NP's don't prescribe, legally. In actual fact, aren't you supposed to know what meds can/should be used for what conditions, what the correct doses are, and so forth? We're all on a continuum- and where each individual is on that continuum, is a factor of more than just the initials behind that person's name.
Jul 14, '02originally posted by nurseangie
sure, but it can be done. it requires two semesters of generalist nursing courses and then three semester sequences of courses in the declared specialty. in your previous post you stated, "an adn cannot go on for the msn. they must first do the rn to bsn program". that is untrue. i do not think that you are even awarded the bsn (i think you are just awarded the msn) upon completion/graduation. i will call vanderbilt to check on that though. the program sounds terrific and is a great way for rn's to become advanced practice nurses in a reasonable time frame. i'm so happy that these types of programs are available. i'm married to a military man and we never stay in one place longer than three years. i have to "step" everything i think!
i hope this helps.
Jul 16, '02My post did not mean that a ADN could never go on for the MSN, just there are other obstacles to get there. I think you need to get the BSN first, at least the programs here are designed that way, and it only seems to go in line that way.
Jul 16, '02I am not sure of otherthroughout the nation, but here, you are required to have a BSN to be accepted into any graduate .
I think standardizing all nursing education would also be a great start, as well as standardizing entry into practice. There are too many inconsistencies. For example, why should Wisconsin graduate schools be different than say, California, or on-line programs? They should all be the same, so that when a nurse has an MSN, we ALL know what was required to get there.
Jul 21, '02I personally don't think graduate school programs could be the same for all graduating with a MSN. I'm working on my MSN in occupational health, but I don't think I should be required to take adv. patho or pharm, since I will never be diagnosing a client, such as NP would. I won't be a clinical nurse specialist either. I don't think they really can all be the same. My program is one that is focused in the specialty one chooses. Mine is OHN in the agricultural industry; however, my school offers programs for MSN degrees also for NP, and CNS. The requirements cannot really be the same , except doing a thesis or project.
Jul 22, '02I went to an associates degree program and at least 30 percent or more of the students were LPN's. I was not a LPN and was starting from scratch. I think the LPN's did better than me at school because they already had so much experience and knowledge that I didn't have. I was shocked first couple days of classes when the instructor would be talking in front of class and students were asking and answering questions I had no idea about. At first I thought they were just smarter until one of them told me they were LPN's and just hang in there. I'm glad I did because I graduated right along with them. I did start reading about the topic of discussions before we even had the class after that. I was well read while the rest was experienced. After graduating I got all the experience I needed to become a great nurse though. It all equals out in the end if you want it bad enough.
Jul 22, '02I agree Cheryl. It has to do with AMBITION and INTELLIGENCE. Shortcomings can be overcome with these! Education is vital, but w/o ambition means little! Congrats to you! You DID it!
Jul 22, '02Originally posted by oh-agnurse
I personally don't think graduate school programs could be the same for all graduating with a MSN. I'm working on my MSN in occupational health, but I don't think I should be required to take adv. patho or pharm, since I will never be diagnosing a client, such as NP would. I won't be a clinical nurse specialist either. I don't think they really can all be the same. My program is one that is focused in the specialty one chooses. Mine is OHN in the agricultural industry; however, my school offers programs for MSN degrees also for NP, and CNS. The requirements cannot really be the same , except doing a thesis or project.
I think by doing this it would eliminate some on-line and even in person MSN offerings without the BSN degree, or not requiring a thesis or final project, etc. Each MSN program can be individualized, obviously, but a BSN and thesis/project should be a requirement for ALL MSN programs.
Jul 22, '02Back in the dark ages of the mid 60s when I was getting a BA in Biology, I was carrying on about all the classes I had to take and my advisor (may God be good to her) told me when I got to graduate school I could do [study] what I wanted.
I think it would be really great if the BSN curriculum was standardized. It sure would make it easier to move from one program to another, or switch from traditional to online. At the graduate level you're talking about specialization and it directly follows that what I specialize in will be different from that of someone in the same program with different interests. Graduate level education and work is where the true breadth and depth of the possibilities within nursing truly come to fruition.