Lowering the Bar?

Nurses General Nursing

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Specializes in LTC/Peds/ICU/PACU/CDI.
originally posted by mollyj

...i believe our traditional nursing cap is a symbol of our historical connection to convents and nuns.

check out this canadian link which gives a great synopses of the history of nurses' caps in north america.

http://www.civilization.ca/hist/infirm/incer01e.html

check-out some variations of nurses' caps from this link: http://dyk1.homestead.com/caps~ns4.html

MollyJ

648 Posts

RN-MSN programs always include completion of the BSN requirements and, as such, necessitate a longer time commitment than that required by a nurse who already possesses the BSN.

JailRN

333 Posts

Specializes in correctional, psych, ICU, CCU, ER.

I don't care how you get your RN, as long as you get it. This is another reason that ther's so much disention between nurses, one is an LVN_RN, one a diploma grad, one an AA, one a BSN, one an MSN. Our licenses all look the same, Good luck

NurseAngie

355 Posts

Specializes in Perinatal/neonatal.
Originally posted by MollyJ

RN-MSN programs always include completion of the BSN requirements and, as such, necessitate a longer time commitment than that required by a nurse who already possesses the BSN.

Sure, but it can be done. It requires two semesters of generalist nursing courses and then three semester sequences of courses in the delcared specialty. In your previous post you stated "An ADN cannot go on for the MSN. They must first do the RN to BSN program". That is untrue. I do not think that you are even awarded the BSN (I think you are just awarded the MSN) upon completion/graduation. I will call Vanderbilt to check on that though. The program sounds terrific and is a great way for RN's to become advanced practice nurses in a reasonable time frame. I'm so happy that these types of programs are available. I'm married to a military man and we never stay in one place longer than three years. I have to "step" everything I think!:)

~Angie

Specializes in FNP, Peds, Epilepsy, Mgt., Occ. Ed.

Well, I think this has been one of the most civil discussions of entry level I've seen.

I went the long slow route- LPN, ADN, BSN, MN- and had a BA to start with. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, but it worked for me. (I never dreamed of the MN when I started out). When anyone asks me how long I've been a nurse, I tell them since 1983- that's when I graduated from my practical nursing program. I still have my LPN education and jobs on my resume, too.

However, I do think that in an *ideal* world, BSN would be entry level. Not because I think that BSN programs turn out better nurses; as we've seen, there's a lot of variation among programs and between individuals. I *do* agree with the poster who said that it would give us, as a profession, a more professional "image." No, I don't think BSN nurses are necessarily more professional than ADN, diploma, or LPN nurses. However, most "professions," such as teaching, require a bachelor's degree and the general public knows that. I think, in an ideal world, that the strengths of all programs could be combined- the prerequisites, theory, management, etc. from BSN programs, and the clinical experience with an emphasis on skills from ADN and diploma programs. As someone else said, if a nurse graduates and starts work without the skills, yes he or she can learn them- but who has to teach them?? The already overworked, overburdened, stressed-out nurses already working!

This reminds me of the debate we had several times in my FNP program: are we practicing medicine, or nursing? I always said nursing, or at least medicine from a nursing point of view. Now I think I'd say that we all, from docs to nurses of all levels and I guess you'd include just about everyone else- we're all practicing patient care, or we should be.

Some see the 'leap' from RN to NP as a big one where you suddenly start going from one level to another. I don't see it that way. Non-NPs don't diagnose, legally. In actual fact, you do it every day! Non-NP's don't prescribe, legally. In actual fact, aren't you supposed to know what meds can/should be used for what conditions, what the correct doses are, and so forth? We're all on a continuum- and where each individual is on that continuum, is a factor of more than just the initials behind that person's name.

Specializes in LTC/Peds/ICU/PACU/CDI.
originally posted by nurseangie

sure, but it can be done. it requires two semesters of generalist nursing courses and then three semester sequences of courses in the declared specialty. in your previous post you stated, "an adn cannot go on for the msn. they must first do the rn to bsn program". that is untrue. i do not think that you are even awarded the bsn (i think you are just awarded the msn) upon completion/graduation. i will call vanderbilt to check on that though. the program sounds terrific and is a great way for rn's to become advanced practice nurses in a reasonable time frame. i'm so happy that these types of programs are available. i'm married to a military man and we never stay in one place longer than three years. i have to "step" everything i think!:)

~angie

yes, you're required to get the bsn degree first...then you're awarded the msn degree after finishing those courses. i believe most accelerated rn-msn programs due award bsn as a stepping-stone to the msn degree. checkout my school's accelerated program:

http://www.tju.edu/jchp/nursing/rnbsnmsn.cfm

i hope this helps.

oh-agnurse

62 Posts

My post did not mean that a ADN could never go on for the MSN, just there are other obstacles to get there. I think you need to get the BSN first, at least the programs here are designed that way, and it only seems to go in line that way.

Q.

2,259 Posts

Specializes in LDRP; Education.

I am not sure of other schools throughout the nation, but here, you are required to have a BSN to be accepted into any graduate nursing school.

I think standardizing all nursing education would also be a great start, as well as standardizing entry into practice. There are too many inconsistencies. For example, why should Wisconsin graduate schools be different than say, California, or on-line programs? They should all be the same, so that when a nurse has an MSN, we ALL know what was required to get there.

oh-agnurse

62 Posts

I personally don't think graduate school programs could be the same for all graduating with a MSN. I'm working on my MSN in occupational health, but I don't think I should be required to take adv. patho or pharm, since I will never be diagnosing a client, such as NP would. I won't be a clinical nurse specialist either. I don't think they really can all be the same. My program is one that is focused in the specialty one chooses. Mine is OHN in the agricultural industry; however, my school offers programs for MSN degrees also for NP, and CNS. The requirements cannot really be the same , except doing a thesis or project.

nursecheryl

111 Posts

Specializes in inpatient hospice house.

I went to an associates degree program and at least 30 percent or more of the students were LPN's. I was not a LPN and was starting from scratch. I think the LPN's did better than me at school because they already had so much experience and knowledge that I didn't have. I was shocked first couple days of classes when the instructor would be talking in front of class and students were asking and answering questions I had no idea about. At first I thought they were just smarter until one of them told me they were LPN's and just hang in there. I'm glad I did because I graduated right along with them. I did start reading about the topic of discussions before we even had the class after that. I was well read while the rest was experienced. After graduating I got all the experience I needed to become a great nurse though. It all equals out in the end if you want it bad enough.

SmilingBluEyes

20,964 Posts

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I agree Cheryl. It has to do with AMBITION and INTELLIGENCE. Shortcomings can be overcome with these! Education is vital, but w/o ambition means little! Congrats to you! You DID it!

Q.

2,259 Posts

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by oh-agnurse

I personally don't think graduate school programs could be the same for all graduating with a MSN. I'm working on my MSN in occupational health, but I don't think I should be required to take adv. patho or pharm, since I will never be diagnosing a client, such as NP would. I won't be a clinical nurse specialist either. I don't think they really can all be the same. My program is one that is focused in the specialty one chooses. Mine is OHN in the agricultural industry; however, my school offers programs for MSN degrees also for NP, and CNS. The requirements cannot really be the same , except doing a thesis or project.

I hear what you are saying here; obviously your program is different from mine (I am in a Nursing Education track) but what I meant by standardizing is requiring a BSN for admission, as well as a thesis or final project for graduation.

I think by doing this it would eliminate some on-line and even in person MSN offerings without the BSN degree, or not requiring a thesis or final project, etc. Each MSN program can be individualized, obviously, but a BSN and thesis/project should be a requirement for ALL MSN programs.

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