Is there REALLY a nursing shortage? - page 5

This is an interesting article guys/gals... Here's the letter I wrote to the President, Vice-President, U.S. Congress Rep. and Senator: "I'm an R.N. and I recently started working as an agency... Read More

  1. by   eddy
    Quote from lizz
    Actually, when people shop at Wal-Mart, they take jobs away from American workers. But Americans like the lower prices that cheap foreign labor provides.

    Are we supposed to throw up trade barriers so Americans can have more jobs and pay higher prices?

    Same thing with the Mexican immigrants who work in the California agriculture industry, which supplies cheap food for the rest of the nation. You want to pay higher grocery prices so Americans can have more of those jobs?

    Protectionism of any kind doesn't work, and never has.

    In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.

    The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.

    The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better.

    I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

    We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

    While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

    Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...
  2. by   mattsmom81
    [QUOTE=nightngale1998]WannabeLPN: Because there is also a shortage of Nursing Instructors.

    /QUOTE]


    Somebody also has to pay for expansion of programs..I guess TPTB are happy with all the government funds sent out to recruit and train new nurses recently...is that what the nursing schools have been waiting for? The government to bail them out and give them grant $$$?? Hmmm.
  3. by   mattsmom81
    Quote from eddy
    I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

    We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

    While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

    Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...
    I completely agree...and your points form the basis of our capitalistic economy, which is why we are such a profitable nation too by the way. NAFTA has allowed US companies to stay competitive by allowing businesses to operate in countries where they don't have to pay 25 bucks an hour for a low or unskilled worker.

    Sometimes I get put off too by the entitled attitudes in our country..and unions in some respects feed this mentality and support high wages for mediocrity. Although I believe in the idea of unions, it has gone too far...with truck drivers and assembly line workers making more than a nurse, teacher, police or fireman in too many cases. Because they're 'union' they feel they should dictate their value, and that doesn't make sense to me. Other things should apply and value and skill should play a bigger role than it does...but if wishes were horses, eh?

    I don't mind migrants working in our fields, but if they're going to stay here they should do it legally and pay taxes to support the system, rather than utilizing our hospitals, schools, and human services/welfare $$ for free, get paid cash under the table, then hightailing it back to Mexico when things get hot.. I see a lot of this in Texas and friends of mine in California say its even worse there. Wish Bush would take a stronger stance on this issue personally.

    If nurses want to come here and work legally, I think its fine...but like mentioned many times here; the real problem is not being addressed..and foreign recruitment is a bandaid solution. Many American women no longer like the role we are asked to play in today's nursing environments...but this is more than just an American entitlement issue... there are also physical 'nurse shortages' all over the world so its not just an American issue.T Many nurses get sick and tired of being treated like high paid slave labor and simply go into another line of work. But...as long as hospitals can recruit eager, meeker foreigners into nursing servitude, they no doubt will.The foreign nurses here are too scared they'll be sent back to ever buck the system from what I've seen. And IMO bucking the system is the only way we will help ourselves as nurses.

    Sorry, guess I rambled here...lots of food for thought in this thread.
  4. by   Marie0304
    Quote from eddy
    In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.

    The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.

    The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better.

    I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

    We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

    While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

    Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

    Eddy-- In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.

    Marie-- I LOVE getting things from other countries, etc. I love the culture of other places and learning about other people. My problem lies with countries like China who treat their people as poorly as they do. I'm using China as an example... there are sweat shops and people working just as hard for a few cents per hour in other countries besides China, I know. For example... Do you think that Louie Vitton (spelling?) purse that celebrities walk around with and costs 25,000 dollars was really made for more than a few dollars? Or some of the shoes we're walking around wearing? It just makes me nauseated to think that those workers can get treated like they are and we're supporting the BIG guys (corporations) who ALLOW this to happen.

    Eddy-- The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.

    The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better. I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

    Marie-- I never said I wanted my employment to be "guaranteed." You just see so many big businesses trying to save money and have "the little man" work for less and less and less. They expect HIGH QAULITY for LOW wages... are we trending toward Chinese working salaries where they get paid CENTS per hour? I mean, I seriously doubt that will happen in "my" lifetime but don't you notice a trend? Do you SEE many American-made products in Wal-mart. yes, we pay less there and save some money (yes I shop there too occasionally-- but) but I'd rather support American workers (to help secure their jobs)-- have you seen how many factories are closing?... not for poor quality work they're doing-- but so that the products can be made for cents per hour overseas by people who are working in poor conditions and who live in communist countries, etc. and so that large companies/corporations can make more money-- yes, they have every RIGHT to do that, but where do we draw the line??? I have nothing against the people making the products overseas... it's their countries who are ONLY PAYING THEM CENTS PER HOUR and who don't CARE what kind of conditions they're working in... these are CHILDREN in MOST cases who are working in sweatshops and making our wedding dresses, our wicker furniture, our toys; I could go on and on and on. And not everyone in America has the ability to go to school AND support their families if they're job gets swiped from underneath them all of a sudden because some millionaire or billionaire wants to make a few more million/billion. How many different skills/trades must you become an expert in/on in order to make a dollar? Do you understand what I'm saying?

    Eddy-- We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

    Marie-- Like I said above... I'd rather support my American worker if it's only a few dollars more... seriously. That's just ME. I'm not rich but I don't like supporting communist countries who treat their employees/slaves, if you will, as they do. Would I support a puppy mill over a reputable breeder? Why would I support an evil communist country or ANY country who treats their workers SO POORLY when I could put it towards people who ARE skilled and who are working hard at a factory in a free America? If I don't support my country and the workers HERE, then they definately will falter and will NOT have jobs. If the trend keeps on like it does and eventually all of our products get made in other countries... what will American workers have as a trade to turn to??? I seriously wonder what will eventually happen. Granted, I can't buy EVERYTHING American, but I can certainly TRY to buy American when it's possible.

    Eddy-- While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

    Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

    Marie-- This *is* an interesting discussion, isn't it???
  5. by   elkpark
    . If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing?
    It's socially responsible because China and many other countries use slave labor, prison labor, and child labor to make the products that are a few bucks cheaper than the US made products. The people who are doing the work in the other countries are exploited, abused, and living in horrible conditions. If you want to consider that to be "efficiency," go ahead, but I would rather pay a few dollars more and have a clear conscience.
  6. by   Marie0304
    Quote from elkpark
    It's socially responsible because China and many other countries use slave labor, prison labor, and child labor to make the products that are a few bucks cheaper than the US made products. The people who are doing the work in the other countries are exploited, abused, and living in horrible conditions. If you want to consider that to be "efficiency," go ahead, but I would rather pay a few dollars more and have a clear conscience.
    {{{{{APPLAUSE, CHEERS, AND MORE APPLAUSE}}}}}

    Well said, Elkpark!!! Now THAT'S what I was trying to get accross as well. Why can't people see this? People need to be educated... we're supporting a communist country by buying things "Made in China" and the like.
  7. by   eddy
    Marie-- I LOVE getting things from other countries, etc. I love the culture of other places and learning about other people. My problem lies with countries like China who treat their people as poorly as they do. I'm using China as an example... there are sweat shops and people working just as hard for a few cents per hour in other countries besides China, I know. For example... Do you think that Louie Vitton (spelling?) purse that celebrities walk around with and costs 25,000 dollars was really made for more than a few dollars? Or some of the shoes we're walking around wearing? It just makes me nauseated to think that those workers can get treated like they are and we're supporting the BIG guys (corporations) who ALLOW this to happen.

    Eddy-- Good points. However, more often than not, people get QUITE excited to work in these "sweat shops" that American corporations put up. While the working conditions and compensation seem substandard to us, they generally are MUCH better than their locally owned "sweat shops". I don't intend to justify poor working conditions. Far from it. I am a very outspoken advocate of improved working conditions. My point merely being that it is generally viewed as an IMPROVEMENT when a yankee company comes to town. Pay raises and improved conditions. Local companies generally get quite angry because it often forces them to "raise the bar" in terms of conditions and compensation... because the local workforce has been given a CHOICE.


    Marie-- I never said I wanted my employment to be "guaranteed." You just see so many big businesses trying to save money and have "the little man" work for less and less and less. They expect HIGH QAULITY for LOW wages... are we trending toward Chinese working salaries where they get paid CENTS per hour? I mean, I seriously doubt that will happen in "my" lifetime but don't you notice a trend?

    Eddy-- People are compensated according to a supply and demand curve. If there are tons of people willing to work for the current wage (or less)... enough to satisfy the required number of quality people for the position(s) required, there is no sense in raising pay. If Americans expect too much pay for the job, THAT'S when they go elsewhere. It's the world we live in. I do notice a trend. But not the one you are speaking of. The trend is in technology. We are increasingly able to do more with less. This also means less people. Those who learn and embrase the changing world will benefit. Those who insist on "protecting their way of life" in increasingly obselete job roles will suffer. US companies in general are becoming more and more reliant on technology and information to maintain a competive advantage. The big money is going to those workers who DEVELOP that competive advantage. We can't subsidize an obsolete group of workers.

    Marie-- Do you SEE many American-made products in Wal-mart.

    Eddy-- Yup. The Sam's Choice line (walmart's private label) among many countless others.

    Marie-- yes, we pay less there and save some money (yes I shop there too occasionally-- but) but I'd rather support American workers (to help secure their jobs)

    Eddy-- By shopping at Walmart, you are still supporting countless American workers. Truck drivers, clerks, accountants, HR people, granny greeters, inventory people, etc. etc.... And a great deal of the products on Walmart shelves are in fact American made.

    Marie-- have you seen how many factories are closing?... not for poor quality work they're doing-- but so that the products can be made for cents per hour overseas by people who are working in poor conditions and who live in communist countries, etc. and so that large companies/corporations can make more money--yes, they have every RIGHT to do that, but where do we draw the line???

    Eddy-- I mentioned it above, blame technology. Granted I say that as I sit here happily employed. But it's really becoming a BLAME game. Also, it's not ALWAYS companies looking to save a buck. Increasingly, some unions are bullying US companies to the point they just can't AFFORD to operate in the US anymore. It can also be said that we as consumers just don't want to pay that much to replace (or merely add to) most of the stuff we ALREADY have that is working fine in the first place. Like a bigger TV, a cooler stereo, etc.... In order to get people to buy this stuff, prices have to decrease. In order for prices to decrease, overhead must do the same. If you've ever bought a 30 dollar DVD player, a 10 dollar phone, a 25 dollar boombox, a calculator for less than a buck, etc. you likely participated in the process as well. In the meantime companies in the US are begging for more IT professionals, engineers, etc. and paying top dollar to get them to come to America because we simply can't produce enough of them ourselves. Blame education for that one I guess.... hehe...

    Marie-- I have nothing against the people making the products overseas... it's their countries who are ONLY PAYING THEM CENTS PER HOUR and who don't CARE what kind of conditions they're working in...

    Eddy-- I wasn't aware the countries were writing the checks.

    Marie-- these are CHILDREN in MOST cases who are working in sweatshops and making our wedding dresses, our wicker furniture, our toys; I could go on and on and on.

    Eddy-- I think "MOST" is a bit of an overstatement. SOMETIMES would probably fit better.

    Marie-- And not everyone in America has the ability to go to school AND support their families if they're job gets swiped from underneath them all of a sudden because some millionaire or billionaire wants to make a few more million/billion. How many different skills/trades must you become an expert in/on in order to make a dollar? Do you understand what I'm saying?

    Eddy-- I understand what you are saying. I just don't entirely agree with it. 1) You don't have to go to school to learn a new trade/skill. Books are free, and so is the ability to read them. 2) A millionaire is not rich by today's standards. 3) Very few large companies are privately held, so it's not just one fat cat making these decisions, it's stockholders, and there are thousands, sometimes millions of them that would like to make a little money from their shares or their mutual funds containing said shares. 4) You need to know as many skills/trades as it TAKES to make a dollar. For instance, it's simply not my problem if you are a steam engine builder and jets are the only thing in demand these days. 5) It's better for us (ME AND YOU) if a US company is still open and using foreign factories rather than closing due to financial insolvency. At least they are still contributing tax dollars, service and support jobs in the US, AND helping the economy.

    Marie-- Like I said above... I'd rather support my American worker if it's only a few dollars more... seriously. That's just ME. I'm not rich but I don't like supporting communist countries who treat their employees/slaves, if you will, as they do.

    Eddy-- By buying foreign made products you are still supporting American workers. It still takes people to sell it to you, to deliver it to the stores to sell it, to count the money from selling it, to develop the software to track it, on and on.

    Marie-- Would I support a puppy mill over a reputable breeder? Why would I support an evil communist country or ANY country who treats their workers SO POORLY when I could put it towards people who ARE skilled and who are working hard at a factory in a free America? If I don't support my country and the workers HERE, then they definately will falter and will NOT have jobs. If the trend keeps on like it does and eventually all of our products get made in other countries... what will American workers have as a trade to turn to??? I seriously wonder what will eventually happen. Granted, I can't buy EVERYTHING American, but I can certainly TRY to buy American when it's possible.

    Eddy-- If you support the "little guy", buy one from the pound. The fine breeds from breeders AND puppy mills will find homes. hehehe.... just being a dork. The reality is that the traditional "jobs" are and will continue to deminish in America. It's not becuase of greed, it's because of economic reality.

    Marie-- This *is* an interesting discussion, isn't it???

    Eddy-- Yea, but I've got a headache now, and we're really doing this in the wrong forum. hehe...
  8. by   goliath738
    I am considering a career in nursing. I was wondering if there is really a nursing shortage or hospitals are making it up to bring in cheaper labor from other countries.
  9. by   bobnurse
    I think it depends on where you live.........I heard kansas has an excess of nurses....but some places like southern texas and arizona are very short nurses. Ive read posts and stories about states that have no job openings, so people are moving.....SO research your area and see........
  10. by   Quickbeam
    I agree with bobnurse...I think it can be a regional issue. Some areas have shortages in very specific ways. In some places, no matter how short, they won't hire a nurse who wants an 8 hour schedule.

    Also, there are a lot of nurses who don't want to do hospital nursing...many leave the profession or take other roles as a RN. Out of my nursing school class, I'm the only one actively still using my license 20 years later. Many are financial planners, real estate sales people, SAH moms, etc.
  11. by   bobnurse
    Quote from Quickbeam
    Also, there are a lot of nurses who don't want to do hospital nursing...many leave the profession or take other roles as a RN. Out of my nursing school class, I'm the only one actively still using my license 20 years later. Many are financial planners, real estate sales people, SAH moms, etc.
    I have read that when they first started all this hype in regards to a shortage, they didnt realize the impact of 1. Nurses retiring at a later age 2. Nurses coming back due to divorce, spouse losing job or cut in income.

    I read in many states this is the reason for an actual nurse excess now.
  12. by   begalli
    Food for thought.

    http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce...andprojections

    "In 2000, the National supply of FTE registered nurses was estimated at 1.89 million while the demand was estimated at 2 million, a shortage of 110,000 or 6 percent. Based on what is known about trends in the supply of RNs and their anticipated demand, the shortage is expected to grow relatively slowly until 2010, by which time it will have reached 12 percent. At that point demand will begin to exceed supply at an accelerated rate and by 2015 the shortage, a relatively modest 6 percent in the year 2000, will have almost quadrupled to 20 percent. If not addressed, and if current trends continue, the shortage is projected to grow to 29 percent by 2020."



    "In addition to the number of RNs who give up their license, there are currently almost half-a-million licensed nurses not employed in nursing. Between the 1996 and 2000 surveys, the number of licensed RNs not employed in nursing grew by 52,000 to over 490,000 (See Chart 6). Unfortunately, little is known about this population. However, what is known is that 69 percent, or 338,000, of the 490,000 licensed RNs not employed in nursing in 2000 were 50 years or older. Further, analysis of data from the 2000 RN Sample Survey shows that only 7 percent of the licensed RNs not employed in nursing were actively seeking employment in nursing."



    Lots of visual stuff at this website.
  13. by   begalli
    From same link above...

    This is interesting. Good for teachers! Bad for Nurses. It may somewhat explain why some of those 1/2 million RNs leave.

    "Furthermore, a good portion of the wage growth for these nurses appears to occur early in their careers, then taper off with time. In 2000, staff RNs employed full-time in nursing, who graduated 5 years earlier, typically earned wages 15 to17 percent higher than those newly entering the field, depending on basic nursing preparation, but only 1 to 3 percent less than nurses who graduated 15 to 20 years earlier. As their potential for increased earnings diminishes over time, staff nurses may be motivated to leave patient care for additional education and/or other careers in nursing or outside the profession."



    "Real Earnings" = the amount available after adjusting for inflation.
    Last edit by begalli on Jan 3, '05

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