I'm curious of your opinion - page 9

On another board a group of people are discussing a case. It's about a 25 week premature baby needing a blood transfusion. The family refused the blood transfusion. The court's interceded and... Read More

  1. by   VickyRN
    Scriptures show that Christ is the central Person of the Bible. The Written Word revolves around Him Who is the Living Word. He is the Hub of the wheel of Truth and all truths are as spokes relating to Him. These truths teach us practical lessons or principles that may be applied to a person's life, and general conduct. Sheer knowledge carries with it PRIDE. What matters is what we learn of the Word and it transforms our life.
    That Jesus was in the beginning with the Father is without dispute (John 1:1). Jesus, like God, also has no beginning. "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2). The Hebrew translated "everlasting" ['olam'] in this passage is the same word used to describe God in Psalm 41:13: "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting." When Jesus was contending with the Pharisees (the "religious" crowd of His day), He made this statement, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad... Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58-59). This statement so angered the Pharisees that they picked up stones to throw at Jesus, and why was that? Because Jesus had said something blasphemous in their eyes, He was calling Himself "I AM" (JEHOVAH God).
    But, you ask, JW, how could Jesus be God and be on the earth while He also prayed to God in heaven? Can God be in more than one place at one time? Three attributes of God are His omnipotence (He is all powerful, nothing is too hard for God), His omniscience (He knows all things), and His OMNIPRESENCE (God is everywhere at the same time). Our mortal minds simply cannot fathom all of this. But then again, this is what makes our God so awesome. He is way beyond our logic, we can't figure Him out, we just have to accept Him by revelation. Here is something to help with this:
    Appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament are called Christophanies. One such occurrence is recorded in the book of Genesis, chapter 18. In this account, Abraham encounters three special men, one of whom is identified as JEHOVAH. These supernatural visitors are about to visit Sodom. Because of this city's great wickedness, judgment is decided. In chapter 19:24 it is stated, "Then the LORD (Jehovah) rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (Jehovah) out of the heavens." So here we have it, JEHOVAH on earth and JEHOVAH in the heavens at the same time. There it is in black and white, JW, you figure it out with your logical mind.
    Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The word "God" in this passage is the Hebrew word "Elohim" which is a plural word. "Created" in this passage ("bara") is third person singular. So we have a plural Subject with a singular verb. This speaks of collective unity in the Godhead. This is further born out in Scripture: "Then God (Elohim) said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."(Genesis 1:26). Isaiah 6:8: "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?...." More light on the triune nature of God is seen in this marvelous New Testament passage: "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17). Here we see all three members of the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Separate, but one. Distinct, but equal. Having separate functions, but in perfect harmony. God the Father is the Operator; God the Son is the Administrator, and God the Holy Spirit is the Manifestor. This is referred to the Godhead in the book of Colossians (3:9): "For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily..." The early church was instructed to baptize new converts "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19). The early church considered Jesus to be God. "And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of godliness [it's a mystery, our mortal minds can't understand it]; God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." (I Timothy 3:16). Thomas, the disciple, considered Jesus to be God in his declaration at the feet of Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). If this declaration were false, then Jesus, being the spotless Son of God would of necessity rebuked Thomas. Instead, Jesus stated, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed. " (John 20:29). Jesus received worship while on earth (Mark 5:6, 15:19; Luke 24:52). If He were not God, this would have been a great sin for Jesus to accept such worship. John 5:18 states, "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."
    Let me ask you this, JW, what sort of relationship do you have with Jehovah God? Is it all just a bunch of do's and don't's, memorizing Scripture, working your way to Paradise? God doesn't want dead religion, He wants a love relationship. He wants to be your best friend, the lover of your soul. He cares for you, He has the hairs of your head all numbered, He has engraved you on the palm of His hands. He sent Jesus His Son to die for all of us, to make a way back to Himself.
    The Scriptures, the entirety of the Book from front to back speak of Jesus. "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39). "And this is ETERNAL LIFE, that they may KNOW you [experientially in union and communion] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3).
    Well, JW, I am speaking from my heart; hope all of this spurs you on to see the marvelous Jesus of the Bible. For now, I'm sleepy (worked last night) and going to bed!
    Last edit by VickyRN on Jan 27, '02
  2. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    I think the most simplistic scripture to nail home what has been so eloquently stated by Healingtouch is
    John 3:16
    I don't have a bible, I haven't even looked in one for 15-20 years so I will certainly paraphrase something, but , here goes

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved man that he gave his only begotten son to die on the cross for his sins. that whomsoever should beleive in him would have eternal life."
    The exact words escape me but the message will never leave my life.
    I don't really need to quote scripture to know Him.
  3. by   JW-HLC
    Your posting is merely abusive and incorrect. Jehovah's Witness, adult or minor do not desire to be martyrs but if it comes to a choice between obedience to God's law or not being obedient they choose God's way. The bible is full of such examples, however it is evident that the bible and its beliefs mean nothing to you, a backslider, a lapsed ... lapsed what, what were you? and you just wish to heap abuse from your own lack of faith - shame on you.

    If you took the trouble to read those accounts you would see that the individuals concerned made their own individual choice based on their own conscience. Your comments merely trivialise their individual faith. Do you think any of those parents wanted their children to die? Of course not, why did they take them to hospital in the first place? But that doesn't matter to you does it, it is just a point to be made, a score in a "virtual" game. Your will and view to be dominant come what may and no matter what offence you cause.

    In my country 17 year-olds are able to marry and have children of their own and if they wish they can join the armed forces and engage in battle, yet you say they are incapable of making their own decisions? What evident rubbish and an insult on the memory of these individuals whose faith puts you to shame.
    In one account, if you have taken the trouble to read it, you will see the matter was taken before a court of law in your country and the "child's" ability to make her own decision was upheld:-

    "L. is a beautiful, extremely intelligent, articulate, courteous, sensitive and, most importantly, a courageous person. She has wisdom and maturity well beyond her years and I think it would be safe to say that she has all of the positive attributes that any parent would want in a child. She has a well thought out, firm and clear religious belief. In my view, no amount of counselling from whatever source or pressure from her parents or anyone else, including an order of this court, would shake or alter her religious beliefs. I believe that L. K. should be given the opportunity to fight this disease with dignity and peace of mind."
    "Application dismissed."


    Tell Lisa Kosack that she didn't die for her cause, that she was a martyr by proxy and that she was just a showcase for her church. I know what answer you would receive.
  4. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Call it what you want JW. At least I'm not some kind of malformed intellectual that finds some kinky satisfaction in using knowledge of scripture to qualify that it's ok to die rather than be WRONG.
    At least I'm a backslider that once had a close relationship with God.
    It's pitiful that someone of your passion can't say the same.
  5. by   GreytNurse
    I want to know at what point did this discusion go from a medical issue involving a child, to a religious banter?
    You guys didn't read my comment......you CAN"T argue with this JW nut!!!!!
    JW can not talk without covering it with misquoted, misguided scripture!

    Like I said.......What about them Rams?????????
  6. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Greyt,
    I never knew until I did some research. Like I said we didn't have computers back when I was "slaying". I never knew the abyss could be that dark and that deep.
    This thread has been a real eyeopener ...wow
    And really, when it comes to treatment I likely won't be consulted but it's nice to know it's just the tip of the iceberg when dealing with these sorts of people.
  7. by   live4today
    Hello everyone,

    I came back to this post -- after not reading it for a while -- to see how the preemie baby was doing with the blood transfusion that was court ordered, etc., only to see that the Jehovah Witness controversy has taken over the board.


    Greytnurse,

    I TOTALLY agree with you!

    JW,

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding your religious beliefs, as is everyone else. Can we MOVE ON now and get back to the little tyke who received a blood transfusion? Did the baby survive? Have you even bothered to ask since you started conversing with everyone about why Jehovah Witnesses believe as they do? I just wish we could get back to the topic at hand about the little preemie here. I really want to know how the little one is doing. Does anyone know?

    Religion is a HOT and OVERDEBATED topic that certainly has a right to be discussed on a nursing forum, but could this particular HOT topic be moved to its own forum so we can get back to the topic at hand, PLEASE?????

    ______________________________________________

    "The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER
    Last edit by live4today on Jan 27, '02
  8. by   KRVRN
    AMEN!

    No one is going to change anyone elses' religious opinion.
  9. by   JW-HLC
    Hi Renee,

    The original poster asked "What is your feeling? Should the courts/hospital intercede? Or do the parent's have the right to refuse blood in this case?"

    As this issue normally only applies to those who are JW's, I responded as a JW who deals with these matters with some frequency, to put the JW point of view. I thought that it might be both interesting and beneficial for readers to hear it from "the horses mouth" so to speak.
    I have tried to keep the discussion on matters relating to why JW's don't accept blood but some like to make a coconut shy of "the JW", hence the attacks on various aspects of our religious beliefs and it is perhaps natural to defend what you hold dear.

    I too would like to know the outcome for the little one, but no one with that information has come forward.
  10. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Reene,

    "The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER

    I thought I would use your signature to explain the length of this post.

    JW,
    I didn't mention your religion until you attacked my integrity. I would have preferred not to.
  11. by   GreytNurse
    ......"Interesting and beneficial for readers to hear it from " the horses mouth" so to speak......: you also stated that you have TRIED to keep the discussion on matters relating to why JW don't accept blood.....well I think that your comment is not entirely true. You have actually done more 'yelling' and cramming down throats.
    The 'attacks' have not been on your faith as a JW, the attacks have been on YOU personally since you were totally avoiding all of our questions and instead, you were 'preaching' from your homemade soapbox and displaying your 'religious' zealous. (please note that I'm not speaking of the JW faith here, just generally speaking).

    Reene......Regarding your quote......"The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN"T being said".....actually that is a poor statement, since not all people 'hear' the same thing and that, my friend is how misunderstandings occur!!!
    I know that this 'blood' issue has alot to do with religion, regarding the faith of these parents, but as I stated before, we as medical professionals, must take into account the child here, how is unable to speak for itself. How about some 'thoughts' regarding your own personal objectives of this. How would you react? If you shared this belief and it were your child, how would you react to the medical staff against you?? Just curious.
  12. by   live4today
    "The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER
    *******************************

    GREYTNURSE:

    The above is a famous quote which is only ONE of many famous quotes I like to share from time to time. In my PERSONAL opinion, I -- and I did not intend it to be a favorite for others -- but I chose that famous quote out of my book of famous quotes to apply to this thread because it reminded me of my Nursing Issues Class in college that talked a lot about how nurses should offer a "listening ear" to their patients, all the while observing their "UNSPOKEN DIALOGUE" that often clues a nurse or doctor in on other things bothering the patient that the patient just isn't able to share with us as their caregivers.

    Have you ever heard the song that says "IF A PICTURE PAINTS A THOUSAND WORDS THEN WHY CAN'T I PAINT YOU" ?

    That song reminds me of Peter F. Drucker's quote, that's all. It says to me that what we are being told isn't all there is to the story, or what we see isn't all that's really being shown to us. We have to look deeper into things than just what's on the surface. You can choose to disagree with me, and that's perfectly OKAY, my friend.

    No one has to like Peter F. Drucker's quote just because I do. I'm okay with that!

    **********************************

    Greytnurse:

    You asked me about my own objectives regarding this situation with the baby who needed blood yet the parents refused.... I'm not sure if this was the post I posted my comment on, I think it was the original one...not sure. Anyway, in my original comments, I said that I agreed with the courts who court ordered for the baby to receive blood to try and save the little one's life. Any life measures that can be taken to save the life of a human being should be exercised in the health field without exception.

    HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING: You asked that if I were of the JW faith and had a child who needed blood, how would I react to the medical staff against me?

    Well, I can honestly say that I would not be a Jehovah Witness because its teachings are not those that I would believe in. BUT, hypothetically speaking, IF somehow I were a JW, I would be one of the JW who would NOT be opposed to receiving blood transfusions. There is no way that I would allow a child of mine to die over something that is NOT of God.

    JW: Now, I know this will probably start another lecture from you, but JW -- this is my PERSONAL belief, okay. Please don't take offense to it. I am NOT attacking you here, JW, just that which is taught by the JW religion, nor do I take offense to your PERSONAL belief, JW, when it comes to whether or not you personally would receive a blood transfusion.

    Just for the record, my personal religious belief is this: I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Virgin Birth. I accept Jesus as God's Only Begotten Son who came to earth to die for mankind's sins so that never again would we have to offer up a sacrificial lamb by the shedding of its blood because Jesus shed His own precious blood that was without sin for the sins of ALL mankind. I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, The One who makes it possible for me to partake in the salvation of mankind, EVEN THOUGH I am still living in a sinful body of flesh with a fleshly nature that will continue sinning IF I do not exercise discipline and self control in my life when making decisions. I accept that I am NEVER going to be PERFECT, but ONLY PERFECTED IN CHRIST as my Lord, my Shield, My Refuge, and My Savior. I am, and always will be as long as I breathe, "an art under construction" for the glory of Almighty GOD.

    I hope this post clarifies and answers those questions that were presented to me. If not, please don't hesitate to ask me again. Keep in mind: THIS GAL AINT PERFECT BY NO MEANS!!!
    Last edit by live4today on Jan 28, '02
  13. by   Peeps Mcarthur
    Greytnurse,


    {QUOTE,Greytnurse}
    "about some 'thoughts' regarding your own personal objectives of this. How would you react? If you shared this belief and it were your child, how would you react to the medical staff against you?? Just curious"
    {end quote}

    I will never actualy be in that predicament. I don't have children and won't ever have them. I actualy try to avoid them in my professional as well as personal life. I won't belong to an all controlling religion.
    So, for what it's worth, if faced with this dilemma I think I would consider all the possibilities, including the fact that I might not be thinking straight. I would wonder why these professional , educated, caring people wouldn't just take the easy way out of the situation to apease my beliefs. Wouldn't my way be just as safe?
    I would wonder if It's because they see grave danger and I don't, or that they don't want to see my point of veiw.

    I would wonder about their own religiouse convictions and whether those are interfering with their decisions.
    I would wonder if I'm really doing it for God, or if I was just so caught up in whether the church would approve or not that I wouldn't consider other viable options(Now that I have experience with)
    No matter, I'm sure it would be difficult to not think that a good and rightiouse God, would understand and still love me if I felt weak and needed his forgiveness.(that I also have experience with)
    No doubt, that's a God everyone can agree on.

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