Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions

Nurses General Nursing

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You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other non-nursing professions have a lot of controversy over adopting these standards? Or any standards, for that matter. Nursing doesn't agree on what the standards should be, unless you consider the multiple points of entry a "standard".

The debates in nursing over proper entry-level have been going on and on for years. North Dakota (and Canada, yes?) has adopted the BSN as the entry-level. How did this come about? What did it take for the legislators to sit down and say, "this is how it's going to be, no ifs ands or buts"? How is nursing affected in these areas due to the BSN being required?

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by globalRN

Regarding unions: the AMA isn't technically a union but they are one helluva force and act like a union. You don't hear docs arguing about their medical preparation/specialties.

First of all I agree the AMA is like a union as they use their joint force to get things they want accomplished.

Second...as to docs arguing about their medical preparation, I can remember when DOs weren't considered real MDs! I have a friend who is a DO, and he used to talk about this. I remember the hassle he got in trying to get priviledges at one hospital.

I also can remember when Chiropractors were considered by Medical MDs as quacks...even though they go thru a program similar to medical students. They had four year degrees, and I have seen MDs bristle at just the mention of using them. I used to have a conversation about this with my former chriopractor, and I was truly interesting concerning the thoughts and ideas of MDs prior to their being recognized as professionals and added to many insurance plans.

So no bickering about who is more educated, or more professionlly prepared in not just an issue among nurses.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Geriatrics.

To get back to the original poster's question, I did some searching and found one board for physical theraists where this issue was mentioned. It was very interesting, you could almost substitute "RN-BSN" for PT and "RN-ASN" for PTA and it would be the exact same debate so apparently these issues are not unique to nurses. Also, I noticed that apparently PT's suffer some of the same feelings of insecurity in regards to their contributions to the health care team; I found that very interesting, I honestly didn't realize that they felt that way. You learn something new everyday. Anyway, here's the link:

PT's Forum

Regarding unionization, I agree with Mark25. I also am a male RN but I don't believe that gender is an issue in the same context that he does. I think that this is the glass ceiling concept in a female dominated profession. Many in society still envision a nurse as a little old lady in tennis shoes pushing food trays and bed pans. BSN as entry level for the profession will be some progress in the right direction but it is not the only answer. How we present ourselves in the work environment is also an important consideration. I'm a charge nurse and have my greatest challenge in assisting nurses with their critical thinking skills. They are resistant to taking responsibility and automatically default to calling the physician, charge nurse, supervisor, therapist, etc. They will call the physician without having all the pertinent information at their disposal and before they have attempted all the interventions at their disposal. They come off as looking incompetent to the physician. The physician then makes a negative generalization about the entire nursing staff. Taking our profession seriously is what I'm talking about. I know that I'm preaching to the choir here because the nurses that need to read this would not bother to access this web site. You guys are nurses that care about making a difference.

As far as unionization goes, I think that it is time. The people that can help most are nurses that have progressed to administrative and management positions. But they are judged and evaluated by CEOs and CFOs. If they try to stand up for the rank and file of nurses, their jobs will be on the line. I once wrote a letter making these points to an assistant administrator in our organization who is a nurse. She took it personally and this became apparent to me when she called me on the carpet to explain myself. Nurses that make it to these upper level positions tend to forget where they came from. They become the loudest voices that are telling us we have to do more with less. If these upper level managers would stick by the staff nurses, we would not have to consider unionizing. If we want to protect the progress we've made in the last 20 years, we have to change our attitude. Nurses are willing to complain to each other about the way things are but they don't do anything tangible that will make a difference. Better pay and protecting nurse to patient ratios are the two most significant issues in my book. You know, this post is probably more appropriate for another thread, but there it is anyway.

Vsummer1:

Congrats on your opportunity to go back and receive your BSN. ANd if I offended you anyway, I certainly didn't mean too.

THe issue as I see it in this debate is not to judge one another because of the decision we made in regards to what entry point we chose to become RN's. After all I chose an AD proram myself, and we had that right b/c there was and still is three entry points into the profession. However, it didn't take me long to realize once out in the real world that I had the least amount of education among my fellow healthcare workers. And that in healthcare, especially in the clinical aspect, education is everything. It doesn't matter how smart you are or how hard you work, if you don't get more education you will always have little autonomy or compensation. By making the entry point a BSN and hopefully updating the currliculum we may one day be given more respect and compensation that will truly reflect our role in healthcare.

Specializes in Community Health Nurse.
originally posted by micu rn

.......................... most ad programs require about 72, counting clinical hours.

the community college i attended to obtain my associate in applied science degree (major: nursing) required 110 total credit hours, micu rn. the college also was well known for its high percentage of nurses passing the nclex the first time around. :nurse:

because i have other majors and minors in science, the total number of college credit hours that i graduated with was 133. i am well prepared to tackle more than nursing. :chuckle

btw....what is a "nondegree nurse"? :confused:

BSN nurses are no more prepared than ADN nurses. Face it, we all

are RN's, we took the same NCLEX!!!!!!! I was appauled at the article in this issue of the AJN that was talking about ADN vs BSN. I am currently pursing my BS, in marketing, not nursing!!! I think that it will complement my nursing skills, so much opportunity for pharmacy reps, etc... and then I am going to complete my MS in nurtrition and become a Registered Dietician. Imagine the possiblilities with that? I think that we should encourage RN's to get BS degrees in such areas as Psychology, business, management, etc.... There is no more that a BSN program can teach you about nursing that an ADN program can't!!!

P.S. We need to quit eating our young, or there will be none left!

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by DJrn

Regarding unionization, I agree with Mark25. I also am a male RN but I don't believe that gender is an issue in the same context that he does. I think that this is the glass ceiling concept in a female dominated profession. Many in society still envision a nurse as a little old lady in tennis shoes pushing food trays and bed pans. BSN as entry level for the profession will be some progress in the right direction but it is not the only answer. How we present ourselves in the work environment is also an important consideration. I'm a charge nurse and have my greatest challenge in assisting nurses with their critical thinking skills. They are resistant to taking responsibility and automatically default to calling the physician, charge nurse, supervisor, therapist, etc. They will call the physician without having all the pertinent information at their disposal and before they have attempted all the interventions at their disposal. They come off as looking incompetent to the physician. The physician then makes a negative generalization about the entire nursing staff. Taking our profession seriously is what I'm talking about. I know that I'm preaching to the choir here because the nurses that need to read this would not bother to access this web site. You guys are nurses that care about making a difference.

As far as unionization goes, I think that it is time. The people that can help most are nurses that have progressed to administrative and management positions. But they are judged and evaluated by CEOs and CFOs. If they try to stand up for the rank and file of nurses, their jobs will be on the line. I once wrote a letter making these points to an assistant administrator in our organization who is a nurse. She took it personally and this became apparent to me when she called me on the carpet to explain myself. Nurses that make it to these upper level positions tend to forget where they came from. They become the loudest voices that are telling us we have to do more with less. If these upper level managers would stick by the staff nurses, we would not have to consider unionizing. If we want to protect the progress we've made in the last 20 years, we have to change our attitude. Nurses are willing to complain to each other about the way things are but they don't do anything tangible that will make a difference. Better pay and protecting nurse to patient ratios are the two most significant issues in my book. You know, this post is probably more appropriate for another thread, but there it is anyway.

Am I having dreaming or did I read this somewhere else. At least the first half sure sounds familiar

Specializes in Community Health Nurse.

I never knew that nurses were viewed as "little old ladies", DJrn? :confused:

In the mid 1980's when I was in nursing school, my first nursing texbook described the average nurse as being a young white female, so I never heard what you were told about them. :nurse:

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
originally posted by cheerfuldoer

btw....what is a "nondegree nurse"? :confused:

i think that is referring to a diploma nurse. a diploma is just that, a diploma, not a degree.

dheerfuldoer,

I'm just saying that that image is some of the stigma that we are dealing with. Others do not see us as we see ourselves.

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by cheerfuldoer

I never knew that nurses were viewed as "little old ladies", DJrn? :confused:

I also think that stigma comes from waaaay before the 80's, during a time when women were struggling to become contributing members of society (Nightingale's time) and women who weren't married and cared for their husbands became nurses to make a living.

Back then, nursing = single, old lady. It's in the early writings of nursing.

Specializes in ICU, nutrition.

I am in complete agreement with those who posted that the entry level for registered nursing should be the BSN. I think that the LPN/LVN should also be kept. All current RNs should be grandfathered in, and a timeframe of say, 10 years should be required to change ADN programs into BSN programs.

Renee (Cheerfuldoer) posted that she needed 110 hours for her ASN. That is BS!! It only takes 130 hours to get a BS/BA/BSN (whatever field you chose to get a degree in). We should be angry with the AD/ASN programs that require SO MANY CREDIT HOURS for what most people see as a two year degree. Most people don't know that a "two year" nursing degree takes much longer than that. Most people don't know that a "four year" nursing degree only takes a little bit longer than a "two year" nursing degree.

If AD/ASN programs are already making students take that many hours, it should not be that difficult to change them into BSN programs. Essentially add a semester or a year and there you go.

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