Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions - page 5
You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other... Read More
Oct 10, '02I guess that is the next question we must all be willing to ask ourselves. How much worse are we willing to tolerate things being before improvements are made? Sadly, there just are not enough young people who are willing and with lots of time (and MONEY), to replace us and enter professional nursing. And yes, the grandfathering idea is a very good one. .....however I still say we need to make access more universal and more ADULT-learner FRIENDLY, if all-BS nursing will ever come to pass.
Oct 10, '02IOriginally posted by Susy K
I for one would prefer to grandfather in all existing RNs and start with the BS requirement with all new nursing students and , anyway. To me, that simply just makes sense.
Oct 10, '02Grandfathering in has always been the path taken...noone is taking away anything from anyone who already is an RN or NP.
THAT is why I can't understand why it is such an issue still!!!
Oct 10, '02Originally posted by MICU RN
Love your post and agree with it 100%. Putting the profession first and not taking the debate so personal will be a key for positive change. And in regards to VSUMMER"S post it is obvious that the he/she is taking the issue personal, with comments like " it took me 2 years to just take the prereq.'s". Well it took me almost two years also. Why? Because I went to school part-time and worked full-time. The bottem line is how many credits did you need to graduate? Most AD programs require about 72, counting clinical hours. And it usaully takes someone who is a full-time student 1-2 semesters to complete the prereq's. and then go to school for 24 months. If anything, I regretted not going for my BSN initially because it only would have taken 3-4 more semesters and I would have it out the way. And the issue is not whether Ad nurses can do their jobs as well as BSN prepared nurses, we do it every day, it is about taking an important step towards becoming a more respected profession. That is one of the reasons I went back and enrolled in a RN/BSN program.
They just started a satellite campus here, will be teaching BSN here next semester. I am LIVID to know that my ADN program has the EXACT SAME CLINICALS, IN THE SAME ROOM AT THE SAME TIME as the BSN's do. We were actually asked to conserve supplies since they have more students coming in next semester due to the BSN's coming in.
The difference? ONE semester of NON CORE classes. I am MAD to know that, and I feel insulted to the extreme to hear that I should have taken one extra semester for my BSN. BUT, you bet that after I finish I am putting in that 1 measly semester and getting my BSN. Now that it is available in our little neck of the woods..
SORRY, caught me at a really bad time on this one! How can they justify giving a BSN for one semester of non core classes when they are going to be training side by side in clinical with ADN's?! Turning this around, I should be happy that our program is so good I guess :chuckle
Oct 10, '02SmilingBluEyes- I'm sorry I upset you. This timeline/ADN/BSN thing has been a thorn to us since a have been a nurse. I started out as a BSN because the LPN school turned me down for having high scores. I was raising a child by myself and needed a salary that wasn't min. wage. There was a BSN program in town and ADN program was 40 miles away...so it was convient for me and I couldn't work FT, commute and go to school so I understand choices. I am not better than anybody.Believe me, I'm not and I know it.
The timeline has been discussed since I was in clinicals in 1981. Standardizing educational levels would bring it a long way but it's needs to be done without demoralizing anyone and not excluding nurses already in the profession with other levels.Last edit by Mattigan on Oct 10, '02
Oct 10, '02Originally posted by TheLionessRN
I just want to say one thing about unions, even tho that part of the thread wasn't picked up on more.
Unions are not for Professionals. If we are going to be considered professionals, then we need to earn the respect of the medical community. Unions are for people who put cars together, for truckdrivers and painters. I am not putting these folks down, but these are not college educated positions, and if we join their ranks, then we are sending a loud message to the world that we are going to use thuggary instead of intelligence to get what we want. I don't think we want to be thought of as the Local Healthcare Union #109, or whatever, when a lot of us are very proud of our titles, which are professionally earned.
Oct 10, '02Mattigan, apology gladly accepted and no hard feelings. *shakes your hand*
Oh and Val, my friend, just WAIT 'til you try a bridge program to the BSN. You think you are livid now???? Wait 'til they re-teach you all kinds of things and require you to shell out $1000s more you don't have to do this. Not to mention LOTS AND LOTS of time, doing clinical hours to satisfy their requirements, failing to recognize our experiences already. LIVID?
Yes, it is an outrage--- Just Another issue that stands in the way of many ADN-prepared nurses going back to school. See, folks for so many of us, it is not an issue of lack of ambition, but lack of desire, I guess-------Desire to spend time and money we don't have, let alone be treated like children, going back to school, just to get a BSN and earn exactly what we are now, doing exactly what we do now. And, I do take exception when one says "If you wanted it, you could have done it".....I wish it were so; I WANTED DESPERATELY to earn a BSN! However that said, That Many BSN's require NO MORE CLINICAL HOURS (really where I was, this was true) than what I did in my ADN training , and a few more expensive classes IS an outrage that needs to be addressed when considering going ALL BSN. Hey, the money I have to spend to go back and get a BSN, I would much rather spend on other classes, learning a lot more of what I value. Anyhow, You bring up valid points, Val.
Oct 10, '02This is truely an intersting thread. My personal journey in nursing and education has given me a different perspective than I had when I started in the profession some 20++ years ago. I was an LPN for 12 years, ADN for 10 more years, an aid for several years before that and am presently completing my BSN. While I had my ADN, I actually completed a dual masters degree in health services management and business. I already had a BA in management. I thought that a BSN program would be a waste of time because of my level of experience (this has actually proven to be accurate). I thought that a masters in health services would enable me to advance into positions of increasing responsibility. I was wrong. Nursing as profession looks closely at education level when determining who to advance. I agree that the entry level should be BSN. But I also strongly believe that this alone will not provide the professional respect we desire. The BSN program must be changed in order to serve the needs of modern day patients. I have learned absolutely nothing in my BSN program for numerous reasons. Some of it is the curriculum. Some of it is the instructors themselves. I work in an acute care hospital. CCU and Tele. are my areas of experience. We discharge patients quicker and sicker these days. Our education needs to take this into account. Who has time to care plan effectively and have a patient present long enought to see a problem through to completion? I've said enough for one post.
Oct 10, '02Originally posted by globalRN
Regarding unions: the AMA isn't technically a union but they are one helluva force and act like a union. You don't hear docs arguing about their medical preparation/specialties.
Second...as to docs arguing about their medical preparation, I can remember when DOs weren't considered real MDs! I have a friend who is a DO, and he used to talk about this. I remember the hassle he got in trying to get priviledges at one hospital.
I also can remember when Chiropractors were considered by Medical MDs as quacks...even though they go thru a program similar to medical students. They had four year degrees, and I have seen MDs bristle at just the mention of using them. I used to have a conversation about this with my former chriopractor, and I was truly interesting concerning the thoughts and ideas of MDs prior to their being recognized as professionals and added to many insurance plans.
So no bickering about who is more educated, or more professionlly prepared in not just an issue among nurses.
Oct 10, '02To get back to the original poster's question, I did some searching and found one board for physical theraists where this issue was mentioned. It was very interesting, you could almost substitute "RN-BSN" for PT and "RN-ASN" for PTA and it would be the exact same debate so apparently these issues are not unique to nurses. Also, I noticed that apparently PT's suffer some of the same feelings of insecurity in regards to their contributions to the health care team; I found that very interesting, I honestly didn't realize that they felt that way. You learn something new everyday. Anyway, here's the link:
Oct 10, '02Regarding unionization, I agree with Mark25. I also am a male RN but I don't believe that gender is an issue in the same context that he does. I think that this is the glass ceiling concept in a female dominated profession. Many in society still envision a nurse as a little old lady in tennis shoes pushing food trays and bed pans. BSN as entry level for the profession will be some progress in the right direction but it is not the only answer. How we present ourselves in the work environment is also an important consideration. I'm a charge nurse and have my greatest challenge in assisting nurses with their critical thinking skills. They are resistant to taking responsibility and automatically default to calling the physician, charge nurse, supervisor, therapist, etc. They will call the physician without having all the pertinent information at their disposal and before they have attempted all the interventions at their disposal. They come off as looking incompetent to the physician. The physician then makes a negative generalization about the entire nursing staff. Taking our profession seriously is what I'm talking about. I know that I'm preaching to the choir here because the nurses that need to read this would not bother to access this web site. You guys are nurses that care about making a difference.
As far as unionization goes, I think that it is time. The people that can help most are nurses that have progressed to administrative and management positions. But they are judged and evaluated by CEOs and CFOs. If they try to stand up for the rank and file of nurses, their jobs will be on the line. I once wrote a letter making these points to an assistant administrator in our organization who is a nurse. She took it personally and this became apparent to me when she called me on the carpet to explain myself. Nurses that make it to these upper level positions tend to forget where they came from. They become the loudest voices that are telling us we have to do more with less. If these upper level managers would stick by the staff nurses, we would not have to consider unionizing. If we want to protect the progress we've made in the last 20 years, we have to change our attitude. Nurses are willing to complain to each other about the way things are but they don't do anything tangible that will make a difference. Better pay and protecting nurse to patient ratios are the two most significant issues in my book. You know, this post is probably more appropriate for another thread, but there it is anyway.
Oct 10, '02Vsummer1:
Congrats on your opportunity to go back and receive your BSN. ANd if I offended you anyway, I certainly didn't mean too.
THe issue as I see it in this debate is not to judge one another because of the decision we made in regards to what entry point we chose to become RN's. After all I chose an AD proram myself, and we had that right b/c there was and still is three entry points into the profession. However, it didn't take me long to realize once out in the real world that I had the least amount of education among my fellow healthcare workers. And that in healthcare, especially in the clinical aspect, education is everything. It doesn't matter how smart you are or how hard you work, if you don't get more education you will always have little autonomy or compensation. By making the entry point a BSN and hopefully updating the currliculum we may one day be given more respect and compensation that will truly reflect our role in healthcare.
Oct 10, '02originally posted by micu rn
.......................... most ad programs require about 72, counting clinical hours.
because i have other majors and minors in science, the total number of college credit hours that i graduated with was 133. i am well prepared to tackle more than nursing. :chuckle
btw....what is a "nondegree nurse"?Last edit by live4today on Oct 10, '02