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| No. 390 | 
Aug 06, 2009, 06:19 AM
 Re: "Fired for NO Reason"
I want to add that there are good/bad preceptors just as there are good/bad nurses. Everyone learns differently and sometimes changing preceptors can help. In the case of "Sal" it appear they did everything possible to encourage her, but it is a two-way street. You can lead a horse to water...
I know from my experience - I was very frustrated as a new nurse. My preceptor was an older nurse. She called patients "Sugar Pie" even though they were in their 60s. She was going through a divorce and bankruptcy and would cry in patients rooms. I was afraid of complaining about this nurse who had been there since the dawn of time and had even helped start the 'joint camp' on our unit. I finally went to the manager and said I felt she had a lot of stress (which everyone in the unit was aware of) and I felt I was adding to it.
They gave me a new preceptor. She was three weeks from retiring. Although she was good, she really didn't "care" anymore because (as she said), she was "Out of here!" in three weeks.
After my preceptorship was over - I truly felt lost. I even went to my manager at the time and told her that I would appreciate any insight on how I could improve as a nurse. I went to her FOUR TIMES in my first year as a nurse. Each time, she said "Well, I haven't heard any complaints." I explained "There is no way I am doing everything right. What can I do to improve." I later found out she hated confrontation and it was just easier for her to say "nothing!"
Although this was not the case in "Sal's" story, I do feel we often don't give new nurses enough feedback and praise. When you are called into the office, it's "Here's what you're doing wrong. Let's make a goal. Have a good day." It can be disheartening to new nurses.
I have suggested that for the first year, every three months, have other employees evaluate them - writing 3 positive things and three areas that need improvement. Be sure to include nurses that FOLLOW the new nurse because they are most likely to notice things that weren't finished. I know this would have helped me immensely.
I wanted feedback and never got it. It made me feel my unit didn't care.
 | | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 391 |
Aug 06, 2009, 06:29 AM
Re: "Fired for NO Reason" Originally Posted by samadams8  To Ruby,
What's more, I've seen a lot of substandard or even bozo nurses get the accolades and support of the "you fit in our crowd" nurses. Some of them amazingly even get promoted. Well actually I have seen this more than a few times.
And have you never heard of the Peter Principle and the like? Sorry nurses, but it is reality time. I've seen not-too-swift RNs get off of orientation to be praised, whilst really smart and caring nurses can get brushed aside or totally weeded out. I have seen it many times.
No one is saying that pure and continued incompetence should be tolerated. I will say if you really put everyone's practice under the same harsh and intensely magnified scope, you would find a whole lot of stuff that they ALL need to work on. Nurse professionals MUST strive to apply balance and wisdom and true fairness and understanding. That really is the ultimate issue. Many folks that are so hypercritical could not withstand that same hypercritical inspection upon their own practice for very long. It is so amazing how that is.
Reality is our friend. We nurses really need to embrace it.
This bold section is so true. I have often wondered if management felt they would be easier to control. We have a horrible nurse on our unit. She's rude. She's crude. She talks about her sex life out in the open and how she stole her best friend's husband. When we had a male nurse on our unit, she used to walk into patients rooms and hug him (full body hug) from behind or massage his shoulders. She calls doctors idiots to their offices. Yet - time after time - she is the preceptor for our unit.
Another nurse (we work on med-surg/ortho) would send a patient to ICU every time she worked. A little blood in the foley? BLADDER CANCER! OMG! They need the ICU! She would be so dramatic on the phone that the docs would send them to the ICU. (Better to be safe than sorry.) We jokingly bet on which patient will go this time. She still has a job even though the UNIT MANAGER has said "She is so incompetent that I wouldn't let her touch my family member with a ten-foot pole!" Yet.. she still has a job.
I see it over and over again.
Mediocrity is truly rewarded in our field, and I think that it is a shame. I feel like "It isn't how good of a job you do - it's whose arse you smooch while you do it." I
was totally disillusioned about nursing. I truly thought that because I was entering into a PROFESSION of college educated women that professional behavior would be required. So far, I haven't seen that. I've seen cliques. I've seen my 25 yr old manager act like she's in jr high and there's a popular girls club. She rolls her eyes and sighs when nurses who aren't her "bffs" come to talk to her.
I truly hope that when I enter the Air Force that nursing is different there. I hope there is a higher code of conduct.
| | No. 392 |
Aug 06, 2009, 08:38 AM
Re: "Fired for NO Reason" Originally Posted by samadams8 To Ruby,
I will say that you make some points, however, the truth is simply this. People are fired everyday--and NURSEs quite often as well are fired w/o reason. In At-Will-Employment states, unless underspecified contract NO REASON IS NEEDED. And the bigger issue really isn't about an incompetent new nurse necessarily--we've only one perspective given here for heaven't sake. In general the bigger issue is nures intolerance for other nurses--novice or expert nurses, mind you.
Listen, firing people b/c a few in the crowd see the newcomer (novice nurse or expert nurse--both can be open targets--especially early on in the new position) as a threat or b/c these few decide during one of their intimate group sessions that they don't like so and so--well, this is not a decent or reasonable reason to complain to the manager so that she might fire the person or not give the person a decent chance after the probationary period. But it happens; and it happens a lot.
No offense, but this happens sooooo much in nursing. There is a lot of cut-throat antics in the field. I've been in it for 2 decades. . .it's really there--and if you've been in it for a while then you should know this too.
What's more, I've seen a lot of substandard or even bozo nurses get the accolades and support of the "you fit in our crowd" nurses. Some of them amazingly even get promoted. Well actually I have seen this more than a few times.
And have you never heard of the Peter Principle and the like? Sorry nurses, but it is reality time. I've seen not-too-swift RNs get off of orientation to be praised, whilst really smart and caring nurses can get brushed aside or totally weeded out. I have seen it many times.
No one is saying that pure and continued incompetence should be tolerated. I will say if you really put everyone's practice under the same harsh and intensely magnified scope, you would find a whole lot of stuff that they ALL need to work on. Nurse professionals MUST strive to apply balance and wisdom and true fairness and understanding. That really is the ultimate issue. Many folks that are so hypercritical could not withstand that same hypercritical inspection upon their own practice for very long. It is so amazing how that is.
Reality is our friend. We nurses really need to embrace it. This thread is about a new nurse who thought she was doing a good job despite the efforts of several experienced nurses, nurse managers, nurse educators and preceptors to educate her as to her obvious glaring errors in critical thinking and assessment skills. It is meant to point out to people that if you keep getting the same criticisms over and over, perhaps it isn't because you aren't liked by the "in crowd," or because you're being targeted for lateral violence because you're so much better looking that everyone else; perhaps it's simply because you don't get it. And perhaps that, even if you don't like the tone of voice your preceptor uses or her body language or choice of words, that preceptor may have some valid points that you would do well to internalize.
The thread wasn't meant to be about the pervasiveness (or lack therof) of lateral violence, bullying, mobbing, etc. Nor was it meant to be about hypercritical nurses, hypocritical nurses, the Peter Principal, backstabbing, etc. I thought the original post was very clear. Obviously, I thought wrong.
| | No. 394 |
Aug 06, 2009, 06:26 PM
Re: "Fired for NO Reason" Originally Posted by Ruby Vee This thread is about a new nurse who thought she was doing a good job despite the efforts of several experienced nurses, nurse managers, nurse educators and preceptors to educate her as to her obvious glaring errors in critical thinking and assessment skills. It is meant to point out to people that if you keep getting the same criticisms over and over, perhaps it isn't because you aren't liked by the "in crowd," or because you're being targeted for lateral violence because you're so much better looking that everyone else; perhaps it's simply because you don't get it. And perhaps that, even if you don't like the tone of voice your preceptor uses or her body language or choice of words, that preceptor may have some valid points that you would do well to internalize.
The thread wasn't meant to be about the pervasiveness (or lack therof) of lateral violence, bullying, mobbing, etc. Nor was it meant to be about hypercritical nurses, hypocritical nurses, the Peter Principal, backstabbing, etc. I thought the original post was very clear. Obviously, I thought wrong.
Well, I know Ruby is a h*ll of a preceptor, because she keeps returning here again and again, patiently explaining what the intent of the original post was despite the fact that this sucker is 40 pages long!! 
Samadams8, Faline1973, your posts are really well-written and point out the fact that good nurses are sometimes "fired for no reason", or more accurately, they are fired because they are the victim of a toxic workplace, whether it be a herd mentality, cliques, age-ism, or revenge for a "slight", real or imagined. Thank God, I've only had one job where that was rampant (so-called supervisor favored her BFFs) and got out before they could find a BS reason to fire me. It's horrible to go through that.
I like that idea about the peer review 3 positives and 3 negatives, too. All the feedback I got at first other than the q 3 mo. evaluation amounted to "well, you're still here, aren't you?"  | | No. 395 |
Aug 07, 2009, 08:50 AM
Updated
Aug 07, 2009 at 08:55 AM by samadams8
Re: "Fired for NO Reason"
Yes, but what was pointed out through the thread and is really a tangent is the reality that in this profession a lot of this is mixed in together. Sometimes those that one thinks are idiots are not necessarily. And even we can't be objective, b/c we really weren't there and didn't work with this nurse. We have only one point of perspective. In general I've seen a lot of overlapping with this underlying negative mentality in nursing. I've seen people jump in hypercritical--nurses thinking the are OH so right and the preceptee/orientee is OH so wrong. Really there seems to be a lot of "either or thinking" in nursing practice--especially when it comes for bring up or supporting each other as nurses. But It's just not always the case that the preceptor is always right. And we simply must keep in mind the new person to the unit or floor or whatever is just overflowing with stress--even if they are not new nurses, they are in a new enviornment with all kinds of new and familiar demands, and it's all very complex and complicated. It's rare anymore to see any "uncomplicated" orientations/preceptor-preceptee processes.
Part of the reason for that as well as the hypercriticalness, etc is b/c objective standards for measuring what is going on with the preceptee/orientee and the preceptor are not well-established or in place or respected. All kinds of things can actually blur the picture.
And since there is chronically such blurring and overlapping and lack of objectivity often going on in our field, it is really worthy of considering as relevant.
Again, if the person is truly incapable of current competence in the area, and that has been evaluated as objectively, consistently, and in balance as possible, that will come out, end of story.
But too many are dismissed out of hand unnecessarily. Maintaining and consistently applying objective standards for orientee/preceptee evaluation would limit this kind of thing throughout the nursing field.
Also peer review may be fine, so long as there are consistent, agreed upon, specifically measureable and objective standards for review and evaluation and feedback. Until that is in place, psychobabble or not, we have to consider the EQ factor that is often a huge problem in such situations.
| | No. 397 |
Aug 19, 2009, 09:55 PM
Re: "Fired for NO Reason" Originally Posted by Ruby Vee We all tried over and over with Sal, and she still doesn't get it. Are you guilty of the same thing? If your preceptor says you lack critical thinking skills, do you take it to heart, think about it and learn from it?
When I was a new grad in a prestigious hospital, I had a terrible preceptor. Everytime when I asked him a question, he'll say: "I don't know, you tell me !" It was indeed very intimidating. When I answered the question incorrectly, he reported to the manager which made me even more nervous. I was extremely depressed at that point, thinking that I must have some problem with my critical thinking skills or maybe I have some kinds of learning disabilities. I had very low self-esteem and I even questioned myself about my ability to work as a nurse. After working there for few weeks, I quitted because of the tremendous stress that I was having.
Then I started working in the step down ICU in another hospital. In contrary to my previous experience, my preceptor was extremely supportive ! Instead of questioning me about the labs, she showed me how to used my critical thinking skills and what to look for before I administered the medications. Since then, I've learned a lot and I also received many positive feedbacks from my coworkers and patients.
The point that I'm trying to make is that being a new grad is indeed very overwhelming. What we learned from nursing school is nothing like the 'real nursing'. I seriously believe that everyone has different learning styles and everyone deserves a chance to learn and improve. Before a new grad student administered Coumaudin, we can give the student a hint of what lab that we should be looking for. It takes time to practice one's critical thinking skills.
I don't think it's acceptable to underestimate anyone's ability and sometimes we just need to use some creativity skills and teach the new grads using different methods. I believe that both the preceptor and new grad has the same responsibility. If the new grad fails, it also means that the preceptor has failed to do his/her job properly.
| | No. 399 |
Aug 20, 2009, 11:08 AM
Re: "Fired for NO Reason" Originally Posted by Diaper When I was a new grad in a prestigious hospital, I had a terrible preceptor. Everytime when I asked him a question, he'll say: "I don't know, you tell me !" It was indeed very intimidating. When I answered the question incorrectly, he reported to the manager which made me even more nervous. I was extremely depressed at that point, thinking that I must have some problem with my critical thinking skills or maybe I have some kinds of learning disabilities. I had very low self-esteem and I even questioned myself about my ability to work as a nurse. After working there for few weeks, I quitted because of the tremendous stress that I was having.
Then I started working in the step down ICU in another hospital. In contrary to my previous experience, my preceptor was extremely supportive ! Instead of questioning me about the labs, she showed me how to used my critical thinking skills and what to look for before I administered the medications. Since then, I've learned a lot and I also received many positive feedbacks from my coworkers and patients.
The point that I'm trying to make is that being a new grad is indeed very overwhelming. What we learned from nursing school is nothing like the 'real nursing'. I seriously believe that everyone has different learning styles and everyone deserves a chance to learn and improve. Before a new grad student administered Coumaudin, we can give the student a hint of what lab that we should be looking for. It takes time to practice one's critical thinking skills.
I don't think it's acceptable to underestimate anyone's ability and sometimes we just need to use some creativity skills and teach the new grads using different methods. I believe that both the preceptor and new grad has the same responsibility. If the new grad fails, it also means that the preceptor has failed to do his/her job properly. How many "second chances" should one person get? If they aren't catching on after six months, is it time to let them go? If they've had multiple second chances with multiple preceptors, perhaps we can assume that the new grad is at least partially to blame. If multiple preceptors with multiple teaching styles haven't helped, I'm thinking it's the new grad and not the preceptors, as was the case for Sal. |
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