Female nurses earn less than male nurses - page 6

pay: the gender gap a woman's work is never done. though you might not know it to look at her paycheck. according to u.s. census bureau statistics, women make on average 25 percent less than... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    . Times they are a-changing.

    I do see your point. Not working and staying at home is more of an option for females than males, but I don't think many females anymore are making that their life's goal. Sorry Deb, while even though men aren't looked down upon for staying at home anymore, it's still not the norm and it's a bit of an oddity, and to be honest I've never met one whose done that. But I travel in different circles, wink.

    The times are changing. This much I agree with you on.

    But Tweety, you are wrong when you say women are "not making it their goal to be at home with their kids" anymore. Actually, the tide, after the HUGE women's lib movement made it almost shameful to do this, is turning back. The pendulum is swinging back the other way, slowly. I know many women at my work who would KILL to be in my position and they say it all the time. I stopped working fulltime, gave up the money and the bennies to stay home with the kids more. I did NOT like my kids being in others' care 10 hours a day, 4 days a week. I did NOT like missing out on all the "firsts" that the daycare providers and preschool teachers were good enough to tell me about. Additionally, there are men on base around me who are doing this in increasing rates, too, while their wives are the military spouses.

    An oddity? So what. That is the same as a man choosing to be a nurse. THAT is considered an "oddity" by some, especially those outside nursing. But it's not stopping you, is it Tweety? And it should NOT. And I HIGHLY doubt you care a lot about what people may "say" about your career choices, either.

    I am sorry, my friend, but I have to take small issue with your post. We can't have it both ways. We either accept ALL people and what they do and not worry what the "norm" is, or we hold prejudiced beliefs and in turn, hold ourselves back. Today's family is far from "beaver cleaver" traditional, so we are ALL "oddities" on those standards. I don't have to tell YOU that Tweety.

    And try interviewing some of us women (not in high school) who TRIED the workforce right out of highschool and college, had kids and are either home now or fighting to be there. Then see if the "majority" want to work outside the home, REALLY. The answers MAY surprise you a bit. What is great is we have the CHOICE all along the way.

    I guess what I mean to say is, all people, men and women should be able to choose freely their careers and equal pay for equal work, education and experience should be a given. I don't get why that is so hard for us to understand.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Jun 10, '04
  2. by   Cherish
    Please don't use the military community as an explanation on this 'new' husband staying home thing. As an Army Veteran I have seen this, but not as a reason for the husband being home. In most military posts the community that surrounds them pays VERY minimal. So for the husband to work, while the wife is in the military is not an option because the PAY IS SOOO LITTLE IN THE COMMUNITY THEY ARE IN! and most COMMONLY vice versa.

    It would be common sense for the husband to stay home since daycare pay in these communities would be the equivalent or more then the pay of working. So it would make sense for the husband not to work but take care of the kiddies. Case in point Ft. Hood, TX (which by the way has the most military soldiers and the largest base in the Free World) the closest city is Austin TX which happens to be an 1hr away. There are Temple and Belton but these are small cities, and you do not make as much in these cities as you would normally (I don't even call them cities by how small and nonexistent they are-sorry for people who live there). If your spouse is stationed at Ft. Hood its more likely then not that you will be a stay at home whatever because the jobs around these communities are sometimes not available also that they pay VERY little compared to what you may be used too.

    Also, since you said that you live near a military base and this is common and that people don't talk about it. Maybe you weren't a soldier but the spouse because sorry to say it but the soldiers do talk about it (male and female). Male soldiers and female soldiers (not saying all) but sometimes poke fun at the soldier (female) who is married to a husband who doesn't work. Even though it really is none of there business. That is why most spouses that are married to military soldiers who want to make a career out of it, sometimes join the military, or divorce because of the family issue (military has one of the HIGHEST divorce rates and adultery). Not saying that just because the person is a stay at home dad or whatever that means they will divorce but that can strain financially (which everyone knows can help lean towards a divorce sometimes since finance leads to stress and so on and so farth).

    Yes it is true that males and females, black, hispanic, and white should get paid the same. As a black female, according to the article, I get paid less than white females, I doubt if a white female and me were both equal in every way that she would quit because she knew she was getting paid more (Could YOU do that if you were a white female DOUBT IT!). Yes this is unfair, but I wouldn't expect the person to quit, just as some people are hired just because they are a certain race or gender (if there are not enough in the company, company will meet quota).

    Back to the case in point, SOCIETY still is not used to males as stay at home figures (I don't mean for just going to school, I mean as in after highschool or college that the man stays home and NEVER works again). This is NOT my opinion on the issue just REALITY. As is the REALITY of white males and females, getting paid more than black or hispanic females.
    Last edit by Cherish on Jun 10, '04
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from Cherish
    Please don't use the military community as an explanation on this 'new' husband staying home thing. As an Army Veteran I have seen this, but not as a reason for the husband being home. In most military posts the community that surrounds them pays VERY minimal. So for the husband to work, while the wife is in the military is not an option because the PAY IS SOOO LITTLE IN THE COMMUNITY THEY ARE IN! and most COMMONLY vice versa.

    It would be common sense for the husband to stay home since daycare pay in these communities would be the equivalent or more then the pay of working. So it would make sense for the husband not to work but take care of the kiddies. Case in point Ft. Hood, TX (which by the way has the most military soldiers and the largest base in the Free World) the closest city is Austin TX which happens to be an 1hr away. There are Temple and Belton but these are small cities, and you do not make as much in these cities as you would normally (I don't even call them cities by how small and nonexistent they are-sorry for people who live there). If your spouse is stationed at Ft. Hood its more likely then not that you will be a stay at home whatever because the jobs around these communities are sometimes not available also that they pay VERY little compared to what you may be used too.

    Also, since you said that you live near a military base and this is common and that people don't talk about it. Maybe you weren't a soldier but the spouse because sorry to say it but the soldiers do talk about it (male and female). Male soldiers and female soldiers (not saying all) but sometimes poke fun at the soldier (female) who is married to a husband who doesn't work. Even though it really is none of there business. That is why most spouses that are married to military soldiers who want to make a career out of it, sometimes join the military, or divorce because of the family issue (military has one of the HIGHEST divorce rates and adultery). Not saying that just because the person is a stay at home dad or whatever that means they will divorce but that can strain financially (which everyone knows can help lean towards a divorce sometimes since finance leads to stress and so on and so farth).

    Yes it is true that males and females, black, hispanic, and white should get paid the same. As a black female, according to the article, I get paid less than white females, I doubt if a white female and me were both equal in every way that she would quit because she knew she was getting paid more (Could YOU do that if you were a white female DOUBT IT!). Yes this is unfair, but I wouldn't expect the person to quit, just as some people are hired just because they are a certain race or gender (if there are not enough in the company, company will meet quota).

    Back to the case in point, SOCIETY still is not used to males as stay at home figures (I don't mean for just going to school, I mean as in after highschool or college that the man stays home and NEVER works again). This is NOT my opinion on the issue just REALITY. As is the REALITY of white males and females, getting paid more than black or hispanic females.

    I am sorry, but I am not sure what you are arguing here. First, I never used the military as a reason for a male spouse to stay home. I used my personal example and those I see around as things I see going on, only.

    Oh and where I am, is there no lack of opportunity that is not such elsewhere. There is plenty of opportunity to work outside the home and there are daycares all over the place. Not all bases are isolated outposts in the middle of nowhere.

    I live in Seattle-Tacoma, and while the economy is tough all over, there ARE opportunities here to work outside the home. And I am a veteran of 10 years' service myself, so I am not totally ignorant to what people/soldiers/airmen say. I was around all the "rough" talk for a lot of years, enough to grow a thick shell against it.

    I am saying why do mature people CARE? If a man decides to stay at home (they changed the name of the WIVES club to the SPOUSES club, give you a clue?) who cares???? why would anyone care what gossip is if he or she is busy raising their family?? People really need to GROW UP! Who CARES what "society" says, really? I say buck the system and do what works for YOU. I guess its called growing a thick skin and doing what you believe is best and right for your own family.

    The divorce rate in military mirrors that of our civilian counterparts, so I don't see a valid argument here. Our marriage has survived numerous deployments and a war. What is the point? A man should work outside the home to prevent a potential divorce? I guess I dont' get what you are saying here.

    I still say if men choose to stay at home, bravo and I am sure they don't care a lot what others say. Would that others be so mature and able to pursue what works for them unfettered by ignorance and predjustice around them.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Jun 10, '04
  4. by   Tweety
    Deb I pretty much agree with all you have to say. And I agree if a man says his life's goal is to find a working wife and stay and home and raise babies, while an oddity, he certainly should be free to pursue those dreams. But honestly how many guys have you heard with that goal in life? Now interview some dads who already have a wife and kids you'll get a different answer.

    I'm not saying moms these days don't want to stay home with their kids. That is the desire of a lot of families. I agree that if you interview parentless people and parents, you will definately get two different responses. Many people are realizing for the betterment of their families it's best to sacrifice material gains and careers and have one parent at home, or working part-time.

    But I also think high school and college females are realistic to know that it isn't always possible and they need to be prepared to work. Or that having kids is not the primary career goal they have. Many are prepared to be working moms, or stay at home moms until they are older, or whatever.

    When I was at spouse's colledge graduation the other day clearly the overwhelming majority of the people getting Masters were females, and probably half the undergrads were female as well. Stats are even showing that females are now the majority of college students on many campuses.

    I hope you didn't think that by calling househusbands an oddity I was implying they shouldn't have their freedom of choice or be judged. I think you know better than that. LOL
  5. by   Cherish
    I am not giving an opinion, and really don't feel as passionate about the issue as you are have posted from your REPLYs to everyone. I think everyone else is really not stating more or less there OPINION but REALITY. You are stating your OPINION, which is great, but if you look at the WHOLE picture, you will see that in REALITY society is not willing comforting the stay at home dad. NOW my OPINION would be I don't care if your a stay at home, mom, dad, dog, or cat, but that you take care of your family and finances, and that you enjoy life. THAT is what matters (but thats my OPINION; Society sees it another way and that would be the Reality of it). LOL....
    THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST SINCE I DON'T WANT A DEBATE BECAUSE IT REALLY ISN'T THAT SERIOUS. SERIOUS WOULD BE THAT CHIMPANZEE's ARE ABOUT TO BECOME EXTINCT IN 50 YRS AND SO ARE a TYPE OF KILLER WHALES IN ALASKA, and BELUGA WHALEs. OR THAT THE EARTH WAS ABOUT TO FLY IN THE SUN.
    Last edit by Cherish on Jun 10, '04
  6. by   SmilingBluEyes
    What man needs be comforted in his choice to stay at home with the kids?

    I guess I don't get why people look outside all the time for affirmation as to what they are doing is right at HOME. that is what choice is about. You make it, you stand by it, and you don't feel you have to defend it, if you are secure. And the trend IS growing. As the SPOUSES CLUB name would imply. It's not just women choosing to be home for the kids anymore. So if women are main providers, they should expect to be paid equally. The old argument that men should be paid more cause they are primary breadwinners is DEAD, but still being used. That I guess, is what I mean to say in order to stay on topic here.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Jun 10, '04
  7. by   Tweety
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    What man needs be comforted in his choice to stay at home with the kids?

    I guess I don't get why people look outside all the time for affirmation as to what they are doing is right at HOME. that is what choice is about. You make it, you stand by it, and you don't feel you have to defend it, if you are secure. And the trend IS growing. As the SPOUSES CLUB name would imply. It's not just women choosing to be home for the kids anymore. So if women are main providers, they should expect to be paid equally. The old argument that men should be paid more cause they are primary breadwinners is DEAD, but still being used. That I guess, is what I mean to say in order to stay on topic here.

    Woot!
  8. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Cherish, "serious" to me , also, is the original topic at hand.

    That women are paid less for equal work, experience and education in this day and age is plain wrong and unjustifiable. That it is up for debate at all is not only serious, but puzzling to me.

    Tweety, thank you for the respectful point of view. I hear what you are saying. I guess our choices sometimes change to reflect our changing lives. This would apply to any of us. I remember, When I was in college, I would have DIED if anyone told me I would give up my fulltime career to be home with two kids, let alone homeschooling them. I would have NEVER wanted to become "my mother". I was an INDEPENDENT WOMAN of post-women's lib age after all. You see, girls are making decisions in highschool that DO refect changing times around them, it is so true. But high school is a far cry from age 35 and post-life-experience.

    So they (girls) often revise their decisions as they get older and start families. I think it's great women have the choices they do today. A girl today can aspire to be a pilot, soldier, EMT, professor, lawyer, whatever. It was not true in my Mom's time coming up in the early 60s. I just find it quite interesting that despite this, many of us are instead choosing to stay home and raise our kids. Or men are doing so. It's about choice, and I think that is a wonderful thing!
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Jun 10, '04
  9. by   Tweety
    Deb, I agree that in this day and age there are so many more freedoms. Freedom for a man to still be a man and stay at home with kids, freedom of a mom to put a career on hold and raise kids. Freedom of choice and opportunity for all!

    You're right about women changing their tune after babies are born. Before I was nurse I was a clerk and there was a female executive who was a staunch feminist than quit and gave up big bucks to be with her child. Same thing happened to a coworker who would beat you senseless if you told her she would get married, have a child and be a SAHM, but that's exactly what she did over the course a one year.

    I'm very disappointed to read that in nursing men make more than females. That men make more than females in any profression is wrong, but in nursing it's down right obscene.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jun 10, '04
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    ON that we agree 100%. Its not only obscene but ironic when you consider nursing is overwhelmingly female. The reasons why are up for debate, yes, but as to whether it's right should NOT be.
  11. by   DC2RN
    I think it is great that women have more choices. I think we have reached a point in society where nobody with a straight face would argue that a man should make more than a women for the same job. NOBODY believes that in 2004. In their careers, women do have more choices than ever before.

    ......But, choices have consequences. If a women makes the choice to stay at home, she is making a choice that ultimately will bring her down the payscale in the future. There is nothing sexist about it. This is the reality even in a unionized hospital where the payscale is public and uniform to all and entirely based on seniority.

    The reality is that many more women choose to stay at home than men. Maybe this is slowly changing, but overwhelmingly, it is the mothers who stay home with the kids if one of the parents chooses to stay home.

    I know so many women who would love to stay home with their kids, including my wife, but feel trapped in a lifestyle that forces them to work. In the end, women who feel forced back to work will make a higher payrate, because they have more years on the job. But often they feel resentful of the time with their family that they had to give up. Pay rate is not the only important variable in life.
  12. by   Dayray
    In many foreign countries it is expected that 1 parent will stay home with the children. Some foreign countries even pay a 1 year maternity leave.

    I'm not sure where it was (think it was Holland) where people were paid for 3 years to stay home with no specification as to which parent it was. Sadly I think they were going to change it because of abuses.

    It is too bad that our society doesn't place a priority on parents doing this. Sure everyone should be allowed to have choices and if they don't want to stay home okay but It's too bad that it's not an option for more.

    I read an interesting article that tracked the cost of living and pay from WW2 on. It said that after the war many families had 2 incomes and as this become the norm our economy has adjusted to it so that in order to maintain the same standard of living as 1 income house house pre WW2 a family now needs to have 2 incomes because the job market has adjusted for a larger work force. makes allot of sense when you think about it.

    My wife stayed home until my youngest was 5, now she is back in school and planning to start work. It was hard to survive on 1 income but I'm glad we did it.

    As a side note: When we got married we decided that one of us would stay home to raise the kids. Originally I was going to be the one to stay home but it didn't end up that way. I have no regrets I did stay home with 4 children for about 6 months at one point in our marriage and I feel that I go the better end of the deal being the one to work lol.

    On the subject of men staying home: I can see allot of the points made by both sides. There are people out there that would make fun of a stay at home dad but I agree with deb. They wouldn't make as much fun as they do of male nurses.

    I think the bigger obstacle to this would be the pre-programming of the man himself. I have had friends and relatives that were stay at home dads for a time and they had a real hard time with it. Not that they didn't like being with their kids but they felt like they were getting a free ride and needed encouragement that they were making a contribution to the family.
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    GREAT post dayray!

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