Euthanasia/Spirituality - page 3

I am a member of this board, but rarely post. I have a few questions that I would like to ask. How many of you believe in Physician Assisted Suicide? I believe that a patient should have that right... Read More

  1. by   sbic56
    OK, now. We all are firm in what we are going to believe. The debate on controversal topics like this brings out some strong emotion, but do we have to flame one another? Hate to sound like the camp councilor, but I hate to see a good debate go to sh*t again. No one really knows what goes on after death, so let's not trash each other for our individual beliefs.

    ritataillefer...I like your thinking...good points made.
  2. by   mario_ragucci
    tee it up mom, you are false because, if you assert I need help, and not tell me what help I need, you are missing easy chip-shots. Before I throw you off the green, please tell me what help I need, or apologize here, for your slanderous and unprovoked attempt to harm my name. I ain't taking no birdies from you, so leave me alone :-)
  3. by   sjoe
    Completely in favor of assisted suicide (or unassisted, for that matter). Who has the right to trump someone else's decision about when to get off the merry-go-round? We presently intervene against patients' wishes all the time by prolonging their deaths (at least so long as their insurance holds out), which is little more than imprisonment and torture, IMHO, no matter how we rationalize it to ourselves.
    As for their being a light to which one goes after dying, that is true. Don't know about other "previously departed" spirits being there to welcome one, though, since I've never run into them myself.
  4. by   BBelle
    I too am in favor of assisted suicide provided the patient is terminal and there is absolutely no hope of recovery.
    I know if it were me I would live my life to the fullest until I could no longer go to the bathroom on my own, cloth myself, feed myself, or bathe myself. I would not want to become a burden on my family. But this is my opinion. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves what is right for their situation.
    And yes I firmly believe in the Other Side. The white light, seeing spirits, etc. It's a great feeling to be visited by a loved one.
  5. by   waicurn
    until i could no longer go to the bathroom on my own, cloth myself, feed myself, or bathe myself.
    hmmm... i was like that when i was borned.... sure glad my mommy didn't put me out of my misery then :d

    but seriously, i work at a hospice before and i saw how affective we can help teiminally ill folks ease their pain, freeing them to put closure to their lives.

    i don't think we should actively "help" people die for the same reason why none of us would help a non-terminally illed, depressed, suicidel patient die

    retorical questions for you... would you help a terminally illed patient with no motivation to live who does not have much pain to kill himself? how about some anti-depressant or ect first? or would that be too expensive to invest in somebody "who's going to die anyway"

    when we say we "believe in assistive suicide," and feel it's out of the goodness of our heart, may be we could step back and re-evaluate how we value end of life and how we lable those who labeled themselves "useless" and should allowed to "choose" to die.
  6. by   sbic56
    BBelle
    I agree with your post 100%. When I can no longer enjoy life, it is time for it to end.

    I think hospice is a great alternative for those who feel differently than I do; just isn't for me.
  7. by   BBelle
    Superman: I would only listen to and agree with a patient who wanted to do that.
    I, for one, would want to die while I still had my dignity and was still able to do things for myself. Yes I'm glad our mommies were there for us. But the majority of the older generation have no families left and if they do the families aren't that involved with their care and they put them in nursing homes. To me that would be a depressing way to go. And yes some families love their illed ones enough to provide hospice care for them, but in reality the majority don't.
    I'm just speaking for myself when I say that, when my time comes I choose to die with dignity. I don't want a stranger having to bathe me or wipe my butt clean, because I am too weak to do it. All I am saying (if it were me in a terminal situation)is what is the point of living if I won't be able to enjoy it and do things for myself as I am able to do now. I don't want to be in a situation where I am comatosed and my loved ones are faced with a decision of wheather to pull the plug or not.(if I were terminally ill with no hope of recovery) Just pull the **** thing and let me go.
    Some people, who are terminal whith no hope of recovery, want to fight death til the end and that is Ok, that is their choice, but like sbic56 said ,"just isn't for me."
  8. by   waicurn
    you know... from reading this thread, I think peole's definitions of "assisted suicide" are all different. For example, I say I don't agree with "assisted suicide," but I am perfectly fine with "pulling the plug" because the way I see it, vent and heart/lung machines are only good in cases of surgeries and for short-term used only, which includes perfusing the organs for donation (little plug for organ donations! ) I will even go as far as saying that I'm in relative agreement with someone if he or she refuses gavage feeding when unable to eat "normally."

    When I think of "assisted suicide" I think of leathal injection. Doctors giving a high dose of... I don't know... whatever they use to end an "unhappy life." That's what I don't agree with. The same psych treatment we offer our unhappy 20 years olds should be equally available to the unhappy, ill elderlies.

    Good discussion though.
  9. by   sbic56
    "The same psych treatment we offer our unhappy 20 years olds should be equally available to the unhappy, ill elderlies."

    Sure it should. I don't think anyone disagrees with that statement. Difference is, the odds are much greater that the quality of life one is trying to regain, is much more likely to be obtained in the depressed 20 year old than the debilitated and dying patient, age not being a factor. I am talking about quality of life; if the dying patient truly believes there is none, it should be his right to end his life, if that is his wish. Being ready to die doesn't always indicate a psych problem.
  10. by   waicurn
    Hi Sbic56, BBelle and everyone, I'm glad we are having a nice discussion about this topic. It's good to stretch like this once in a while.

    Ok, I think we pretty much agree on 95% of this stuff... and the fork occurs at the point of "Being ready to die." My position is that with the help of DNAR, Living Will, Hospice, Doc and nurses who are liberal on the pain management...etc., the patient then, can maintain their "dignity" by dying without having to resort to "kill themselves" and nurses and doctors having to deliver death.
  11. by   Jenny P
    Originally posted by SuperMan!
    My position is that with the help of DNAR, Living Will, Hospice, Doc and nurses who are liberal on the pain management...etc., the patient then, can maintain their "dignity" by dying without having to resort to "kill themselves" and nurses and doctors having to deliver death. [/B]
    I believe that if we keep the patient pain free (both mentally and physically), there would be no place for assisted suicide. I don't like it and I would not condone any suicide, assisted or not. I wish every person would have Living Wills and that everyone involved would honor the pt. wishes. That said, I've euthanized a pet or 2 in the past, and I'm okay with that--FOR PETS ONLY!!

    I do believe that there is life after death; after being at the bedside of dying pts. there have been times when you JUST KNOW that the angels are there and that the pt. is seeing relatives who have died before them. I have told pts. to go towards the light; and they seem to smile and die so peacefully.
  12. by   sbic56
    That said, I've euthanized a pet or 2 in the past, and I'm okay with that--FOR PETS ONLY!!
    That only strengthens my argument for euthanasia. Why do we show more compassion to our suffering pet, than we do our own human loved ones? I, too, have been present when my pets were put down and it was awful for me, but so peaceful for them. Let me have the same if I want it!

    Also, I would really much rather have a little bit left to leave my loved ones rather than to give it all to healthcare to keep me barely alive for a few more months. Losing all that has been saved over a lifetime to pay for medical bills is another tragedy in itself!
  13. by   waicurn
    I, too, have been present when my pets were put down and it was awful for me, but so peaceful for them
    We say we "put down" our pets... for reasons such as? And if the pet was a human, wouldn't we at least spend a few hundred thousand dollars for such thing as an angiogram, then a triple-by-pass heart surgery followed by a week of cardiac rehab (how do you maintain sternal precaution on a dog by the way? )... But we don't do that for our pets because?

    Because as much as we feel sentimental (some would even call it "love") and attachment toward our pets... we do not value their lives as much as human lives. That is the fundamental reason why we "put down" our pets. The reason we feel "putting them down" or, key word, euthanizing them as the "compassionate" thing to do for our pets is because a cardiac bypass is not even an option! Because their lives are not as valued.

    And who will be the judge of the value of life, be it 1 day, 1 week, with pain, no pain, useful, useless, happy, unhappy... what criteria would it be? One says "the patient will judge for himself." But do we live in a vacuum? Are not our decisions constantly being influenced by the options OTHERS feel are available to us? And how are "others" basing their decisions on? Would it possibly be influenced by finances? Power? and other unspeakable, unadmitable influence?

    Losing all that has been saved over a lifetime to pay for medical bills is another tragedy in itself
    Adding this to the formula and looking it on a macro-economic level. We all know we are made up of 2 ever-increasing, financially divided classes. If Doctor Assisted Suicide is legal and "generally accepted" who do you think will we see being "put down" out of "compassion?" Who will not have the options of that costly future-operation with 99.9% successful rate that costs $20 millions dollars out of pocket expense?

    Wow! I shudder reading this myself!

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