Ethics Violation-Would you remain silent or challenge the system? - page 7

Today I was labeled a "whistleblower and tattletail because I, along with numerous other students, witnessed a table of individuals cheating on an exam in our Anatomy and Physiology class which is a... Read More

  1. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from reebok
    The point being made was that there is no evidence that there wasn't any evidence of extenuating circumstances that prevented them from being prepared for the test.
    EX:
    Sally didn't plan to cheat but since the opportunity presented itself and the professor could careless WHY NOT? Besides everyone else is doing it. A voice in her head is saying," God I know this is wrong, but I promise I will go back and study this material so I can understand it later" Right now she is worried about more important issues at hand.
    She should listen to the voice in her head and not cheat. Why? Because it is wrong. No extenuating circumstances.

    steph
  2. by   BSNtobe2009
    Quote from reebok
    I know someone out there still disagrees with me. So here goes my last attempt to try to get you all to understand. Let's think of a possible real life situation.

    For ex: Sally, an only child, has just experience the 1rst death in her family. Sally lost her only parent who was her father. She remembers her father being extremely proud of her for going back to College. She's going through the grieving process as well as experiencing financial problems. Sally has 3 kids and the kids' father doesn't help to support them. Two of three kids she have are experiencing trouble at school academically. The reason why she didn't study was b/c she was busy helping them with their homework. Although Sally is currently working full-time to meet ends-meet, she has recently received threat of an eviction and 3 red letters saying some utility will get cut off or car repossessed. She cheated but after she got the answers she went back over the test to understand the material. She cant justify the cheating but right now shes at a time in her life when she could loose everything. She could loose her car, house, fuure, kids and mind.

    Let's say the cheaters were expelled b/c you reported that incident. She was expelled and lost her Faith. Was it worth that woman's children quality of life. Was it worth her living the rest of her life struggling to take care of herself.
    Prioritize: Is reporting the cheaters for a pre-req test that important?
    That's silly. Saying that you can justify cheating because if you don't you'll lose your house and car? How is cheating on a test going to help her pay her bills that are IMMEDIATELY DUE? It doesn't!

    Tests do not test your ability to understand the material, it tests your ability to be able to RECALL it with accuracy and use the information you learned and put it to application.

    You can't cheat on the state boards, so you can't cheat in school.

    I just wonder how many slots are taken up every year with students who cheated their way through pre-reqs only to drop out because they can't cheat their way through clinicals....when someone else that didn't cut corners should have taken their place.

    There is NEVER as justifyable reason to cheat. Ever!

    I went to a school that very often tested the integrity of students, as we had an extremely strong honor system. The Dean would drop a $100 bill randomly on campus in the morning, and was always able to go by and pick it up at the end of the day. No one dared touch it.
    Last edit by BSNtobe2009 on Nov 13, '06
  3. by   bethin
    Quote from reebok
    EX:
    Sally didn't plan to cheat but since the opportunity presented itself and the professor could careless WHY NOT? Besides everyone else is doing it. A voice in her head is saying," God I know this is wrong, but I promise I will go back and study this material so I can understand it later" Right now she is worried about more important issues at hand.

    I've been given the oppurtunity to do cocaine and heroin but that doesn't mean I did it. Just because oppurtunity knocks doesn't mean you have to answer.

    You have the oppurtunity to cheat every time you walk into a classroom. Are you going to take that oppurtunity everytime because it presented itself? If you cheated because you are a single mom working two jobs with three kids and you don't have time to study, odds are you don't have time to go over last weeks assignment PLUS this weeks assignment.
  4. by   reebok
    Quote from kukukajoo
    Oh I forgot- ALL my utilities are on shutoff. I have no $$ for christmas, and I now have over 40 grand worth of med bills from last couple of months. i can't even afford to drive to see my daughter in college 2.5 hrs away!

    Still not cheating!

    I don't think anyone is on a high horse here. I think we just live by different standards than you.

    I read a post of yours Reebok which you were asking which professors were to be avoided and seems like maybe you look for an easy way out a lot of times.

    Also, you blame sally's cheating consequences on someone else- where is the accountability in that? She knew the consequence just like the speeder that got a ticket. A friend always told me never do anything unless you are willing to face the music and do the time for the crime. This seems to be the part you are not understanding.

    I am glad to see most everyone on here has integrity.

    Cheaters never win and winners never cheat!
    I'm sorry to here about your financial difficulties. You stated that you dont believe that anyones on a high horse but right after that statement you put You live by a different standard than I. (huh, could that be PRIDE)

    How were you able to live by a different standard than I? Was it a personal choice? Before you were $40K in debt, how was your child hood? Did your parents guide you in the right direction? Are did you grow up moving from foster home to group home, being abused, misguided?

    Everyone doesnt have the luxury of having parents to instill values in them. A child that's been abused and poverished may come to look at the world as every man for himself. Simply just trying to survive. That doesn't mean they lack ethical values for cheating on a test. They may see the professor's attitude and say well if he doesnt care why should I. Im gone make sure i study in nursing school though.

    As far as I'm concerned Sally saw there was no consequence to the cheating b/c the professor (authority) didn't care. Sally was willing to face the music. When? When she had all ready planned to study harder b/c the comprehensive final exam was sure to come soon. Why shouldnt the tattle teller feel partly responsible when she's the one seeking for a harsh consequence. Trust me no one could make it through SUSON by cheating. If its not directly involved with potential patient harm or school reputation dont bother reporting. Trust me, I think the Nursing school staff are competent enough to weed out the individuals who cant handle it.

    The easy way out: Let's say 2 freshman love biology. One takes professor X. The other takes professor Y. It's possible for both students to come out learning around the same amount of material yet one of the freshman now dreads biology and the other still loves biology. Plus one freshman has a C in the class, the other an A. Why b/c one professor has a different teaching style. X is strict having a quiz every class, essay test, etc. Y is more involved with Lab and relates more to students in real life situations interactive, plus makes jokes during class. Both students have other classes and a social life maybe even a job. If both come out learning around the same amount of information. Why put up with the unnecessary stress?
  5. by   donsterRN
    Quote from stevielynn
    She should listen to the voice in her head and not cheat. Why? Because it is wrong. No extenuating circumstances.

    steph
    Ditto. Every school I've attended had provisions for students with difficulties or "extenuating" circumstances. Not one of those provisions ever included the choice of willfull and intentional academic dishonesty, which is what we call cheating.

    Making mistakes is something entirely different.
  6. by   CritterLover
    Quote from reebok
    the point being made was that there is no evidence that there wasn't any evidence of extenuating circumstances that prevented them from being prepared for the test.
    ex:
    sally didn't plan to cheat but since the opportunity presented itself and the professor could careless why not? besides everyone else is doing it. a voice in her head is saying," god i know this is wrong, but i promise i will go back and study this material so i can understand it later" right now she is worried about more important issues at hand.



    sigh......i'm almost at a loss for words here.
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]you may be making the point that extenuating circumstances may have existed. we are trying to make the point that it doesn't matter.
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]if one is having personal problems that are causing one to have difficulty putting in the time needed to study for classes, the correct response is to go to the instructor/professor/dean and see what can be done. cheating isn't the answer.
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]let me try to offer a couple of different scenerios:
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]#1: you are an rn on a busy post-surgical floor. you get a patient back from surgery, it is your 7th patient. physician orders are for vs q30 min x2, then hourly x4. you don't have time for this, so you check the vs at 0, 30min, and 2 hrs. you "make up" the 1hr vs. the patient's vs are stable, and there is no apparent harm. is this ok?
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]#2: you are an lpn in a busy ltcf. you have 40 patients to give am meds to. your third patient is cranky and refusing her meds. you try to coax her into taking them, using all the tricks you know, but she is closing her lips tight and shaking her head. you don't have time for this; you have about 150 more pills to give out and 45 minutes left in which to give them. so, you just sign off the meds, throw them out, and move on. it was just colace and a bp pill anyway, and her bp is always fine. you'll make sure you check it later, and if it is high, you'll find a way to get that pill into her. is this ok?
    [color=#483d8b]
    [color=#483d8b]your posts seem to have a "the end justifies the means" kind of tone to them. that is a very scary attitude to have in nursing. we have peoples lives in our hands. just because there is no obvious harm done does not mean that the patient didn't suffer.
    [color=#483d8b]

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  7. by   reebok
    [quote=colleennurse;1921315]To the OP, I had a smiliar situation when I took Anatomy. We had lab practical exams (bones/muscles and such where we had to name what was tagged). These kind of exams are probably hard to watch what everyone is doing as there is a lot of movement going on, but absolutely no talking. Anyway I saw a student (who had failed Anatomy previously and was already a nursing student) cheating by having a kleenex in her hand with words/pictures on it. I knew that the professor wouldn't be able to do much without witnessing it, but I sure as heck told her. There are way too many people who studied there butts off to pass those exams. The person who cheated found out that I said something and ended up confronting me about it in the middle of lab, several weeks later, in a very immature way. She put her hand in my face and was talking to me very snotty in front of my lab partners. I then put my hand in her face and asked her how she liked it and then she actually punched me! It was ridiculous, I left the class (crying

    Granted, she wouldn't be the most professional nurse but I would rather someone bold enough to be an advocate for me especially if she knows something isn't right. Don't be jealous cause you're not woman enough to cheat. LOL! For ex: A doctor thats inexperienced may be pushing for a particular surgery or treatment on my elderly mother just to get practice or what not. But this nurse may pull me to the side and tell me don't allow this to go on! She doesn't have to give me the specifics but etc. And my mother survives another 2 or 3 decades, b/c i was referred to take her to a different doctor. Now a lot of you may that's unethical because what qualifies her to give that info. She's not an M.D.;however, she assists this doc and knows about his patient outcomes on this particular surgery/treatment.
    The nurse is aggressive but an upside to that trait is that she wont let MDs or any other mess over her patients
  8. by   reebok
    Quote from HealingHands327
    lol, I really should be studying nursing geriatrics, but i couldn't help but reply. Rebox's opinion on cheating is shady, and he gives extreme rare examples of someone who is caring for family etc and didn't have time to study as an excuse for cheating.

    Cheating is a symptom of dishonesty, and they know the risks involved with cheating. So if they get caught they brought it onto themselves. No it does not mean 100 % they will be bad nurses later on BUT the risks are higher that they will behave unethically as a future nurse and if it was up to me, i wouldn't want them as my nurse either, if they cheated through school and learned nothing. We are talking about taking care of people's lives, something that cannot be replaced by money, which comes with great responsibility.

    I've been both an A student and a D student, and the amount of knowledge between the two is profound.:trout:
    Extreme rare examples of someone who is caring for a family and didn't have time to study as an excuse for cheating. How extreme? How rare? Everyone is not living the American dream with a white pickett fence surrounding a 4 bedroom house, 2 cars, staying in a nice safe upscale neighborhood. Living w/o any financial worries. Living w/o worrying if there going to make ends-meet. That's exactly whats wrong with suburbia today. Are u from Orange county or from somewhere over the rainbow where the things that u dare to dream really do come true?

    At least I can say that u put that cheating is not 100% factor in determinating if someone will be a bad Nurse. Good I'm getting some progress. But the risks are higher that they will behave unethically. Question: By how much? Is it an 30% increase? What?
    Today's lesson: What you consider unethical may not be unethical for another person. It doesn't make you right and them wrong.

    For ex: After hurricane Katrina, the break of the levees and etc. A man who could not swim was hanging on a dead body as though it was a floatation device. The dead body was someone's father, nephew, cousin, son, uncle, etc. The family member would probably say, " Oh my God not uncle Louiee" Why is he hanging on him like that, get off! (crying) Its unethical but desperate times call for desperate measures. You have to be a survivor.

    Last, I want to know what nursing school did you attend to in order to even think that an indivdual could graduate by not knowing nothing. Please tell me so the whole forum can Know not to apply to that nursing school. Wait a minute that may be some type of violaton relating to confidentiality, defamation, slander or whatever. I guess that's just your little secret.
  9. by   bethin
    CritterLover, I love your signature! I hope people seriously think about that quote. Pretty much sums up how I feel about cheating!
  10. by   CritterLover
    Quote from bethin
    critterlover, i love your signature! i hope people seriously think about that quote. pretty much sums up how i feel about cheating!


    thank you!! it was actually this thread that prompted me to post it
  11. by   reebok
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    And as Grandma used to say "if everyone else jumped off of the bridge, would you?"

    There is no excuse for cheating, whether it's planned or not. So because someone didn't plan on cheating, then that makes it ok (whether the professor cares or not)?

    Let's not forget that some schools have an honor code. (whether the professor "cares" or not) If someone can't live up to an honor code, then how can anyone expect them to abide by the laws of the SB, and policy and procedure of the facility they work for.

    If you didn't receive your pain medication, and you found out your nurse documented that they gave it to you, i highly doubt that knowing about the circumstances in the nurse's personal life will amount to a hill of beans when you're laying there in pain.
    Basically and you would too! I couldn't live by myself on earth, esp. knowing that there an under water habitat better for humans b/c the ozone layer has semi depleted a way. No seriously let me be realistic.

    Let's not forget that some schools have an honor code. Back to the traffic law scenario. How many times have you slipped up esp. when everyone else on the interstate is going 65mph. The police doesn't stop them but he stops you. He asks maam do you know how fast you were going? Your saying in your head. I was just flowing with the traffic.

    I agree with you about falsifying documentation, b/c i would be fill in the blank_________. My thesis statement behind this all is that cheating on ONE PREQUISITE EXAM hardly qualifies someone to say that a future nurse will AUTOMATICALLY falsify documents or just be unethical. You can argue and debate my dumb analogies & time wasting anecdotes BUT NO ONE CAN BREAK MY THESIS STATEMENT. So stop trying to convince me your right and stop using numbers against me to reassure yourselves. There could be 1 billion other people disagreeing with what I'm saying but I know my thesis statement is right.
  12. by   gauge14iv
    oh my god this last post just made me LAUGH!

    Some people live on their own little planet eh?
    Last edit by gauge14iv on Nov 15, '06
  13. by   UM Review RN
    Quote from reebok
    I'm sorry to here about your financial difficulties. You stated that you dont believe that anyones on a high horse but right after that statement you put You live by a different standard than I. (huh, could that be PRIDE)

    How were you able to live by a different standard than I? Was it a personal choice? Before you were $40K in debt, how was your child hood? Did your parents guide you in the right direction? Are did you grow up moving from foster home to group home, being abused, misguided?

    Everyone doesnt have the luxury of having parents to instill values in them. A child that's been abused and poverished may come to look at the world as every man for himself. Simply just trying to survive. That doesn't mean they lack ethical values for cheating on a test. They may see the professor's attitude and say well if he doesnt care why should I. Im gone make sure i study in nursing school though.

    As far as I'm concerned Sally saw there was no consequence to the cheating b/c the professor (authority) didn't care. Sally was willing to face the music. When? When she had all ready planned to study harder b/c the comprehensive final exam was sure to come soon. Why shouldnt the tattle teller feel partly responsible when she's the one seeking for a harsh consequence. Trust me no one could make it through SUSON by cheating. If its not directly involved with potential patient harm or school reputation dont bother reporting. Trust me, I think the Nursing school staff are competent enough to weed out the individuals who cant handle it.

    The easy way out: Let's say 2 freshman love biology. One takes professor X. The other takes professor Y. It's possible for both students to come out learning around the same amount of material yet one of the freshman now dreads biology and the other still loves biology. Plus one freshman has a C in the class, the other an A. Why b/c one professor has a different teaching style. X is strict having a quiz every class, essay test, etc. Y is more involved with Lab and relates more to students in real life situations interactive, plus makes jokes during class. Both students have other classes and a social life maybe even a job. If both come out learning around the same amount of information. Why put up with the unnecessary stress?

    I keep reading excuses and seeing blame-shifting here. Don't you realize how much more effort it takes--and how much more it costs!--to lie and cheat than to simply study or take a makeup test?

    But you've changed the argument. You need to go back and reread the original post with the original circumstances. This has become a thread about whether or not it's right to cheat, and under what circumstances it's right to cheat.

    Life has dealt me a few serious curves, and the fact that I got through them without cheating boosted my self-esteem and my pride. I believe that it's OK to be proud of an achievement, and not cheating when all the cards are stacked against you is an achievement.

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