Ethics Violation-Would you remain silent or challenge the system? - page 4

Today I was labeled a "whistleblower and tattletail because I, along with numerous other students, witnessed a table of individuals cheating on an exam in our Anatomy and Physiology class which is a... Read More

  1. by   reebok
    JOLIE

    May I add to your list of integrity. You've never ran the red light. You've never performed a rolling stop at a stop sign. Never had a speeding ticket. Never cursed anyone out even though they deserved it. You stated you pay your taxes. Do you claim only the persons you suppose to claim? You never sinned before so if you would had been born back in the bible day,when Jesus asked let him without sin cast the first stone, You would have thrown a bull dozer at that woman.

    Oh let's go off subject for a min. So I can give refutation by logical analogy. Suppose I report a car traveling 85mph on the interstate. I dont know the reason behind the speeding but im just in an itchy mood. Im too scared to speed myself and jealous that the other car is getting a way with it. If you have gotten a speeding ticket before, What was it for? Well the speeding car was a nurse delivering her father who has a history of coronary heart disease and is experiencing respiratory distress to the emergency room. We all have laws and rules to follow. But you should have common sense enough to know that there are times when those laws or rules should be broken. Even though it's stil wrong.

    Give me an employee who can combine common sense with nursing intervention anyday rather than some one who follows the rule book. Some of you have to be republican.

    How many times has a Lpn or non-lices health care worker saved your @ss? Some of them may have cheated on a test but when it came down to it they put the patient at less risk than you. Cheating on one test hardly qualifies one to say You will be an incompetent unethical nurse. Bullsh**
  2. by   reebok
    Quote from Daytonite
    Oh, for the love of mike! Yes, it is that important to report the cheaters. In your example, SHE'S the one who dug her own hole, not the people who reported her. SHE'S the one who sacrificed her children's quality of life. No one held a gun to her head and forced her to do what she did. It was her own free will and choice. She could have gotten tutoring. She could have gone to the dean and asked to take a leave of absence from the program until she got her personal life back on track. The point is. . .if you want to work in the system then you work with the system not around it. Going around the system to suit your own needs is unfair to all the other people who are part of the system and waiting for the same service. The importance is that it speaks volumes about Sally's character and virtue. I don't think you will understand this unless you become a manager or a parent and find yourself in the role of having to make some serious decisions about hiring people or deciding who your children can associate with. Symptoms cannot be ignored. They are like arrows pointing the way to answers and solutions, dude! Cheating on exams is a symptom of a bigger disease that the person has.
    You must be one truely compassionate nurse. People make mistakes. When you are in the midst of all hell braking loose everyone would like to think that they can think rationally. Oh no I could never do that! Get off that high horse. Dont think so high minded. Everyone copes with stress differently.
  3. by   Freedom42
    I'm with Angie O'Plasty: Cheating on an exam is just a symptom of a much bigger problem with these students. They can't cut it. We know who these people are in class. They're the ones who don't do the homework, skip out on lab, don't study. They don't take anything seriously. They expect to just get by, and they do -- until they finally trip themselves up. They're the ones who got themselves in trouble by presuming that everyone else would be complicit in their dishonesty. Sounds to me like they just saved the nursing admissions committee the needless work of reviewing their applications.

    I say kudos to the student who put her foot down. And I'm reminded of this Dorothy Parker-ism:

    Time wounds all heels.
  4. by   Daytonite
    Quote from reebok
    You must be one truely compassionate nurse. People make mistakes. When you are in the midst of all hell braking loose everyone would like to think that they can think rationally. Oh no I could never do that! Get off that high horse. Dont think so high minded. Everyone copes with stress differently.
    I've just reported this post to the moderators. How about that for compassion?
  5. by   CritterLover
    Quote from reebok
    jolie

    may i add to your list of integrity. you've never ran the red light. you've never performed a rolling stop at a stop sign. never had a speeding ticket. never cursed anyone out even though they deserved it. you stated you pay your taxes. do you claim only the persons you suppose to claim? you never sinned before so if you would had been born back in the bible day,when jesus asked let him without sin cast the first stone, you would have thrown a bull dozer at that woman.

    oh let's go off subject for a min. so i can give refutation by logical analogy. suppose i report a car traveling 85mph on the interstate. i dont know the reason behind the speeding but im just in an itchy mood. im too scared to speed myself and jealous that the other car is getting a way with it. if you have gotten a speeding ticket before, what was it for? well the speeding car was a nurse delivering her father who has a history of coronary heart disease and is experiencing respiratory distress to the emergency room. we all have laws and rules to follow. but you should have common sense enough to know that there are times when those laws or rules should be broken. even though it's stil wrong.

    give me an employee who can combine common sense with nursing intervention anyday rather than some one who follows the rule book. some of you have to be republican.

    how many times has a lpn or non-lices health care worker saved your @ss? some of them may have cheated on a test but when it came down to it they put the patient at less risk than you. cheating on one test hardly qualifies one to say you will be an incompetent unethical nurse. bullsh**

    huh???

    i'm not sure how speeding/traffic violations can be compared to cheating on an exam.

    traffic violations generally carry a fine. maybe something more if the violations are frequent or cause accidents.

    in all of the schools i've attended, cheating on a test (or plagerism) = automatic "f" for the course. some schools punnish cheating/plagerism with expulsion.

    because nursing school prepares one for a professional career, one should be expected to adhere to professional standards when taking nursing classes. this includes prereqs. cheating violates professional standards.

    traffic violations do not violate the professional standards of nurses, unless you are drunk/impaired.

    to the original poster: good for you for having the courage to go to your professor, and i hope you continue to have the courage to follow this through up the chain of command.
  6. by   reebok
    Quote from Daytonite
    I've just reported this post to the moderators. How about that for compassion?
    Why you shouldn't have....
    Sorry to seem so passionate about my argument. I may come off as rude but the truth of the matter is that I'm RIGHT and in my opinion you premium members are wrong. Sorry if the truth hurts. Well you all have the upper hand so I guess this topic is closed due to whatever.

    The only thing those cheating students did wrong was follow her to her car as an intimidation tactic.
  7. by   kukukajoo
    Reebok- this is MY LIFE STORY BELIEVE IT OR NOT- right down to the three kids!! Well all except the cheating- the just is NO EXCUSE for that!!

    You see- I left a VERY bad marraige a few years back. I had a very severe illness and was only making 5 grand a year- no public assitance, no child support. I would have rather died than stay with the ex! I was determined and DREAMT of going to college someday. I made it all happen too- but HONESTLY! I could never live with myself knowing I got a grade I did not deserve- the giult would cause me to punish myself forever!

    I worked three jobs at times just to put food on the table. I worked hard with my three daughters and even volunteered at many agencies around town. My daughters were also involved. I sought out people who were going places or where I wanted to be and learned from them.

    My mon is dead- ALS and thyroid cancer took her. My dad is not in my life and neither is the kids dad- It is 100% me. Top it off with a gram who has metastatic cancer, showing alzheimers symptoms and needs help with ADLS. I am the only family left so this is also my job. My twins are now in college and that is expensive!!

    Oh I also spent almost a week in the hospital first 2 weeks of nursing school! Found out I have a pretty bad chronic illness that is life threatening. I am tired all the time and still having a million tests and treatment and my body and brain feel like I am 90. I still get up and go to school and am there for the kids and do everything by the book.

    Someone once commended me for my choices- I did not understand what they meant. But now I do. I chose to do right and work hard. I chose to be a good role model for my kids. I chose to stay off drugs and booze to self medicate from my awful life. I chose to make it better one step at a time! I chose to not take the easy way out, but to do what it took to get over the hurdles.

    And so can you.

    Quote from reebok
    I know someone out there still disagrees with me. So here goes my last attempt to try to get you all to understand. Let's think of a possible real life situation.

    For ex: Sally, an only child, has just experience the 1rst death in her family. Sally lost her only parent who was her father. She remembers her father being extremely proud of her for going back to College. She's going through the grieving process as well as experiencing financial problems. Sally has 3 kids and the kids' father doesn't help to support them. Two of three kids she have are experiencing trouble at school academically. The reason why she didn't study was b/c she was busy helping them with their homework. Although Sally is currently working full-time to meet ends-meet, she has recently received threat of an eviction and 3 red letters saying some utility will get cut off or car repossessed. She cheated but after she got the answers she went back over the test to understand the material. She cant justify the cheating but right now shes at a time in her life when she could loose everything. She could loose her car, house, fuure, kids and mind.

    Let's say the cheaters were expelled b/c you reported that incident. She was expelled and lost her Faith. Was it worth that woman's children quality of life. Was it worth her living the rest of her life struggling to take care of herself.
    Prioritize: Is reporting the cheaters for a pre-req test that important?
  8. by   angelcharm
    if one has spent his student life cheating.. he can do that again and again.

    ive seen some of my classmates cheat before... a few... but when we took the board exam, they flunked.
  9. by   Jolie
    Quote from reebok
    JOLIE

    May I add to your list of integrity. You've never ran the red light. You've never performed a rolling stop at a stop sign. Never had a speeding ticket. Never cursed anyone out even though they deserved it. You stated you pay your taxes. Do you claim only the persons you suppose to claim? You never sinned before so if you would had been born back in the bible day,when Jesus asked let him without sin cast the first stone, You would have thrown a bull dozer at that woman.

    Oh let's go off subject for a min. So I can give refutation by logical analogy. Suppose I report a car traveling 85mph on the interstate. I dont know the reason behind the speeding but im just in an itchy mood. Im too scared to speed myself and jealous that the other car is getting a way with it. If you have gotten a speeding ticket before, What was it for? Well the speeding car was a nurse delivering her father who has a history of coronary heart disease and is experiencing respiratory distress to the emergency room. We all have laws and rules to follow. But you should have common sense enough to know that there are times when those laws or rules should be broken. Even though it's stil wrong.

    Give me an employee who can combine common sense with nursing intervention anyday rather than some one who follows the rule book. Some of you have to be republican.

    How many times has a Lpn or non-lices health care worker saved your @ss? Some of them may have cheated on a test but when it came down to it they put the patient at less risk than you. Cheating on one test hardly qualifies one to say You will be an incompetent unethical nurse. Bullsh**
    Since you addressed this directly to me, I will respond.

    I am not perfect. I have made mistakes and done wrong, and have been held responsible for my wrong-doings, ever since I was a little kid. I suspect that has a lot to do with my sense of values and honor as an adult. My religious faith teaches compassion for the sinner who CONFESSES, asks for forgiveness, forgives others, and does pennance, all of which is missing from the OP's situation.

    Of course there are situations in which it is appropriate to "bend" the rules, such as the daughter speeding to get her ill father to the ER. There is no evidence that any of the cheaters in the original post had any extenuating circumstances that prevented them from being prepared for the test. If they did, it was their responsibility to discuss those with the prof BEFORE the test, not cheat their way thru the test and beg for mercy later (which they have not had to do, aparently due to the lack of integrity on the prof's part).

    Please don't lecture me about employees who can combine common sense with nursing intervention rather than following the rule book. I've been there many times, and done just that. I've arranged for a family Baptism celebration for a long-term preemie, even though "rules" didn't allow it. It just took a little prior planning, something the baby's family was happy to work on. I've accompanied newborns to ICU to visit their critically-ill mothers, even though rules didn't permit it. Again, just a little prior planning with the ICU staff. The difference here is that the "rule-breaking" was PLANNED in advance so that it wouldn't place anyone in harm's way, a far cry from cheating on a test.
    Last edit by Jolie on Nov 11, '06
  10. by   kukukajoo
    Oh I forgot- ALL my utilities are on shutoff. I have no $$ for christmas, and I now have over 40 grand worth of med bills from last couple of months. i can't even afford to drive to see my daughter in college 2.5 hrs away!

    Still not cheating!

    I don't think anyone is on a high horse here. I think we just live by different standards than you.

    I read a post of yours Reebok which you were asking which professors were to be avoided and seems like maybe you look for an easy way out a lot of times.

    Also, you blame sally's cheating consequences on someone else- where is the accountability in that? She knew the consequence just like the speeder that got a ticket. A friend always told me never do anything unless you are willing to face the music and do the time for the crime. This seems to be the part you are not understanding.

    I am glad to see most everyone on here has integrity.

    Cheaters never win and winners never cheat!
  11. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from reebok
    I know someone out there still disagrees with me. So here goes my last attempt to try to get you all to understand. Let's think of a possible real life situation.

    For ex: Sally, an only child, has just experience the 1rst death in her family. Sally lost her only parent who was her father. She remembers her father being extremely proud of her for going back to College. She's going through the grieving process as well as experiencing financial problems. Sally has 3 kids and the kids' father doesn't help to support them. Two of three kids she have are experiencing trouble at school academically. The reason why she didn't study was b/c she was busy helping them with their homework. Although Sally is currently working full-time to meet ends-meet, she has recently received threat of an eviction and 3 red letters saying some utility will get cut off or car repossessed. She cheated but after she got the answers she went back over the test to understand the material. She cant justify the cheating but right now shes at a time in her life when she could loose everything. She could loose her car, house, fuure, kids and mind.

    Let's say the cheaters were expelled b/c you reported that incident. She was expelled and lost her Faith. Was it worth that woman's children quality of life. Was it worth her living the rest of her life struggling to take care of herself.
    Prioritize: Is reporting the cheaters for a pre-req test that important?
    I doubt Father would encourage cheating.

    And the part i just underlined, .
  12. by   bethin
    Quote from reebok
    For all the self-proclaimed nerds: I noticed no one admitted to never falsifying documents, making a med error or covering up a mistake their whole nursing career. Can anyone of you confess that underoath? Im talking to the well seasoned nurses so newbies dont bother responding.

    The truth of the matter is that you can't be that judgemental. So you all can just get off that high horse of yours. I live in the real world. No blood, no foul.

    And as far as
    How is making a med error comparable to cheating? A med error can occur for a number of reasons: unable to read MD's handwriting, putting wrong info in computer, pharmacy mistake, etc.

    Falsifying documents and covering up mistakes is intentional. Meaning you know exactly what you are doing when you are doing it. If you made a mistake you should come forward. Society is more willing to forgive those who admit to their mistakes then those who intentionally cover them up. Cheating is not a mistake. You don't accidentally glance over to the person next to you and accidentally scan your eyes accidentally to number 12 to accidentally see the answer.

    And yeah, I will testify under oath that I have never cheated or falsified documents. And I'll take a lie detector test to boot.
  13. by   tddowney
    Bravo on having the courage and integrity to take the ethical course.

    I do have to laugh about one thing. When I took last spring, our shortest exam was about 300 questions, and there was no way our prof was going to grade them "while u wait."

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