Do Nurses Earn Big Money? You Decide. - page 26

by TheCommuter Asst. Admin

Am I the only one who becomes at least mildly irritated whenever a random individual finds out that someone is a nurse and proceeds to say, “You’re rolling in the big bucks!” To keep things honest, I’ll recall a few... Read More


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    Last edit by DoGoodThenGo on Nov 30, '12 : Reason: Content added
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    I know what you are talking about! At my daughter's high school, she is ineligible for many services and a major college prep program, because one of her parents has a bachelor's degree (me). One of my daughter's friends parents have done - and continue to do - as little as possible to support their children and are still making adolescent and illegal choices well into their 30s.

    I know those kids are at risk; and suspect that's why my daughter was excluded. But it really seems to punish those of us who made better choices in life (like school over partying or quitting school). And to be clear, I was the at-risk kid when younger and somehow managed to make it this far without all that government aid. Like you said, if they get more by NOT being responsible, what the motivation to be responsible?



    Quote from TheCommuter
    Am I the only one who becomes at least mildly irritated whenever a random individual finds out that someone is a nurse and proceeds to say, “You’re rolling in the big bucks!”

    To keep things honest, I’ll recall a few observations about the people who generally do (and don’t) broadcast their feelings about nursing pay. In my personal experience, no doctor has ever told me to my face that I’m earning ’big money.’ No engineers, attorneys, pharmacists, speech language pathologists, or other highly educated professionals have hooted and hollered about the supposedly ‘good money’ that nurses make once they discover that I am one. On the other hand, bank tellers, call center workers, clerks, and others who work at entry-level types of jobs have loudly made their feelings known about the incomes that nurses earn.

    I was employed at two different fast food chains while in high school, and during my late teens, I worked a string of dead end jobs in the retail sector. From ages 20 to 23, I maintained employment at a paper products plant in high cost-of-living southern California as a factory worker and earned an income of about $40,000 yearly with some overtime. Of course I thought that nurses earned handsome salaries during my years in the entry-level workforce. After all, the average RN income of $70,000 annually far exceeded my yearly pay back in those days. Keep in mind that I paid virtually no taxes as a fast food worker because my income was so low. Also, I paid relatively little in the way of taxes as a retail store clerk.

    Many of the certified nursing assistants (CNAs) with whom I’ve worked over the years have fallen into the trap of believing that the nurses are awash with cash. However, the ones that pursue higher education and become nurses themselves eventually come to the realization that the money is not all that it is cracked up to be. For example, Carla* is a single mother to three children under the age of 10 and earns $11 hourly as a CNA at a nursing home. Due to her lower income and family size, she qualifies for Section 8 housing, a monthly food stamp allotment, WIC vouchers, Medicaid, and childcare assistance. Moreover, Carla receives a tax refund of $4,000 every year due to the earned income tax credit (EITC), a federal program that provides lower income workers with added revenue through tax refunds. Much of Carla’s CNA income is disposable.

    Carla returned to school part-time, earned her RN license, and now earns $25 hourly at a home health company in a Midwestern state with a moderate cost of living. She nets approximately $3,000 per month after taxes and family health insurance are deducted as she no longer qualifies for Medicaid. She pays the full rent of $900 monthly for a small, modest 3-bedroom cottage because she no longer qualifies for Section 8. She pays $500 monthly to feed a family of four because she no longer qualifies for food stamps or WIC vouchers. She spends $175 weekly ($700 monthly) on after school childcare for three school-age children because she no longer qualifies for childcare assistance. Carla’s other expenses include $200 monthly to keep the gas tank of her used car full, $300 a month for the electric/natural gas bill, a $50 monthly cell phone bill, and $50 per month for car insurance. Her bills add up to $2,700 per month, which leaves her with a whopping $300 left for savings, recreational pursuits and discretionary purposes. By the way, she did not see the nice tax refund of $4,000 this year since she no longer qualifies for EITC. During Carla’s days as a CNA most of her income was disposable, but now that she’s an RN she lives a paycheck to paycheck existence. I’m sure she wouldn’t be too pleased with some schmuck proclaiming that she’s earning ’big money.’

    The people who are convinced that nurses earn plenty of money are like shrubs on the outside looking in because they do not know how much sweat and tears we shed for our educations. They remain blissfully unaware of the daily struggles of getting through our workdays. All they see are the dollar signs. I’m here to declare that I worked hard to get to where I am today and I deserve to be paid a decent wage for all of the services that I render. Instead of begrudging us, join us.
    anotherone likes this.
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    Quote from denhcher
    I know what you are talking about! At my daughter's high school, she is ineligible for many services and a major college prep program, because one of her parents has a bachelor's degree (me).
    I'm sorry your daughter was rendered ineligible due to your college education.

    Since more than 70 percent of adults aged 25 or older are without a college degree in the US, I suspect these programs are aimed toward kids who have the potential to become first generation college graduates but are at risk or dropping out due to their parents' inability to give firsthand guidance.

    I was a first generation college student and faced an uphill battle to get where I am today due to lack of support from my parents combined with difficulty navigating the maze commonly known as higher education.
    anotherone likes this.
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    Most nurses aren't going to make 100K+ w/o OT
    *** Quite obviously. Nobody claimed most would. Most won't choose to do the things required to do so and if "most" did do them it would overload the places where that kind of money is made.

    or a second job; it doesn't matter how competent they are unless they live in Cali or NYC, where the cost of living is quite high, and where commutes can be a killer.

    Now, if you work certain travel agencies, especially during strike times you might--but you can bet there will be OT. Otherwise, usually the travel jobs that pay the highest are like in Alaska or the upper and outer reaches of North Dakota, and certain areas of Cali, as well as some specialized hard to fills.
    *** Or in a nice medium sized midwestern city with reasonable cost of living.
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** Quite obviously. Nobody claimed most would. Most won't choose to do the things required to do so and if "most" did do them it would overload the places where that kind of money is made.



    *** Or in a nice medium sized midwestern city with reasonable cost of living.
    Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

    Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

    There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

    So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

    This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

    So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

    Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

    Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

    I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

    Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.
    Esme12 and anotherone like this.
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    Im sure what you make depends on where you live,,im in Taxachussetts i work for LTC facility my annual is approx 65,000(LPN).my rent is 1200,no car pay at this moment car ins 166 month 60 for cell 80 elect and 160 cable, food ,etc. you get the pic. and i support my daughter who is in college and a disabled spouse( who has been denied SSI and my co recently stopped with yearly raises ,cut out overtime and raised my ins contribution 110% 97 bi weekly to 217 biweekly its enough to make ends meat but it is a pay check to pay check living i only save what is taken out for my 401k..but I love my job been there 10 years...but some of you guys are right these administration cut corners and have facility understaff so that their end of year bonus is larger...but i make the best of it i keep a wish list on the fridge if i want or need some thing it goes on the list when taxes come in i seen if the want or need is still there....
    Esme12 likes this.
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    I think compared to the general population, nursing appears to get a decent salary. However, there are days that I just don't think we get paid enough to deal with everything we have to deal with- holding people's lives in our hands, putting ourselves at risk via needle sticks and the like, dealing with antagonistic patients and their families, working short, getting mandated, the list goes on. I won't argue that there aren't jobs that deserve high pay, but many of those with high pay don't experience what nurses experience. Sometimes I think we need hazard pay!
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    Quote from samadams8
    Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

    Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

    There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

    So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

    This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

    So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

    Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

    Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

    I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

    Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.
    I couldn't agree more.....but if states like Washington get away with allowing non licensed personnel, MA's. at the bedside to perform a licensed nurses task...you will see us devalued even more. It's a frightening scenario.....http://allnurses.com/general-nursing...ml#post7050608
    TheCommuter likes this.
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    Quote from samadams8
    Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

    Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

    There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

    So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

    This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

    So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

    Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

    Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

    I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

    Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.
    Here we go again....
    Eroc probably has more expereince in the business side of things, than you will compehend.
    I understand as a floor nurse I what limitations are there, I also understand what it's like to promote people, and fire people. At 23years old I had over 500K invested in my first business, all though my on doing, nothing was given to me. And learned a vast amount in the 15+ years since then. It's as if you think your talking to child with "big dream's"... lmao. I've heard the same lines you have stated over and over throughout the years. Your thought are not uncommon in ANY field.
    I am very comfortable outperforming everyone I am surrounded by. I chose Nursing.... as my starting salary will be less the my last endeavor. It's more like a personal goal to prove to myself how easy it is to get a college education...and Nursing is something I have been interested in for a while now, as I as very interested in the body (That is me in my avatar) ,and like helping people that can't help themselves.
    I understand that might not be what you wanted to believe, but I understand Business first and foremost. So while this will be a career, it is not something I was forced to do.....honestly some people just look for more challenges in life.
    I have a vast knowledge of many different aspects of life, and how to work around them....as I have done in everything I have ever set out to do. So yes, Eroc understands what you trying to accomplsh. Eroc will be a much better Manager or DON than he will be a floor nurse....because after running the enitire show, managing over 40+ people at a time, he knows what he is good at.... because of his experience.
    I truely understand everyone can't be a top earner, or even lead people. Only a few can or will

    While you have continued to try talk down to me...and which you deserve to, IF we are talking about skilled nursing practice.... but we are not talking about skilled nursing practice. We have been debating the same things that go on in EVERY career field. I have refrained from blasting you, like I am capable of, out of respect. (and knowing this is the intenet)
    I know I will only have a few "backers" or people that agree with me. That makes perfect sense to me. My last Professor in school had made it to the PhD level just to prove it to herself...but before that, she was a DON for 20 years, and was very successful at it. We had many talks where we saw things exactly the same way when it came to the business side of nursing. Because we both had EXPERIENCE with running a business.
    Once again I will back down from you if you want to talk skilled nursing...that is something I will show you more respect in.
    I honestly believe people that want to succeed, just don't know the vastly different ways to do so. (I actually love that..because it makes it easier on me) Let me give you best tip I can, don't ask yourself "what would my collegues do to succeed?"...think to yourself "what is it no one else doing that would add overall value to myself?" You simple statement of 'Eroc saying that me and my collegues don't go above and beyond' clearly shows me you are not compending what I'm trying tell you...if you and you other collegues are all going above and beyond...then you are average amougst your peers.
    I hope you comprehend....as I have move passed your thinking long ago.
    Last edit by eroc on Dec 1, '12
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    Quote from samadams8
    Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

    Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

    There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

    So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

    This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

    So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

    Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

    Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

    I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

    Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.
    Ecellent!

    By any measure of scientic methods if nursing service wished to be billed as a stand alone charge on a facility billing statement it would be difficult if not impossible. Even greater today and in future as more proceedures/treatments and so forth are being done by UAPs instead of RNs or LPNs.

    Nursing care is billed as part of bed and board for inpatient care for many reasons and one assumes top of that list is the ease a hospital or LTC has in assigning who performs what long as it is within the scope of practice defined by various federal and local laws.

    While it sounds good on paper in practice billing directly for nursing services opens up a huge can of worms. Would "skilled nursing care" fall only to RNs? RNs and LPNs? Do you bill "professional nursing care" as provided by RNs only leaving LPNs and UAPs out?


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