Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 7

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   moonshadeau
    BSN by 2010: A California Initiative
    [Articles]
    Barter, Marjorie EdD, RN; McFarland, Patricia Lenihan MSN, RN



    The reason why I am so interested in this thread, is that I ran across it during a state board meeting in which I am an officer, Staff Nurse. They asked my opinion about the whole 2-4 year thing. The people that perpetuated the supporting arguements in that circle did not have an AD and had not worked floor nursing in many years.


    The same thing that probably can be said about this article and the ACNL. They probably don't have an AD or have worked on the floor in many, many years. They are in management positions where they come up with position statements for staff nurses without having the information to back it up.

    MHO.
  2. by   l.rae
    Nikki....it doesn't work like that in real life....which is why this model fails time and time again.....these ppl have no clue about real life at the bed side.....and as stated time and time again...adn and bsn take the SAME NCLEX.....obviously, if BSN offered anything different to the clinical aspect of nursing, their NCLEX would have to reflect that.....it doesn't. If the Clueless Ones want to make BSN the entry level and grandfather ADN's in for the face lift they so desire....so be it........But those who want to perpetuate the ingorance and insult that BSN is superior clinically than ADN will have a very rude awakening when reality slaps them in the face....and it will.....which is why in the face of these rude and insulting insuations from those with no real experience, I can still sit back and ...........l have to wonder about those who basicly have little or no background on which to base their oppinions that have been denounced time and time again by the seasoned veterens absolutely scare me to death....they show lack of wisdom and judgement and respect....l would not want such a nurse taking care of me or my family regardless of the initials behind his/her name.....l'd like to be a fly on the wall when the clue bus rolls by them.......LR
  3. by   New CCU RN
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by kasey14546
    [ I'm surprised at how many of you commented that experience was more important than education. I agree that experience is very important and that education has little value without the experience to back it up. However, to become nurses we needed specialized training in this field. That training is the back bone of our experience. If you feel that education is that meaningless you back up the claim that techs can replace us if they are trained.




    I couldn't agree with you more there! You pretty much have summed up exactly why it is important that nursing take the step that so many other professions have done in order to "raise the bar". No one is saying that an ADN or a Diploma nurse is not a good nurse.

    The point is that by requiring a BSN or moving towards a BSN will in turn help the nursing profession. PT did this....they went from Bachelor's entry to Master's and now there is talk of PhD entry, Pharmacists did this...the majority of the programs are MS only now, and the list goes on.

    We all complain that nurses don't get the respect and pay they deserve. Well certain things will do this. Upping the education requirements is one of these.
  4. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    Kasey, I agree with you 100%. Usually a BSN is required for management positions in my area, but new staff nurses make the same regardless if they have an ADN or BSN. I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills. The profession of physical therapy has become a mroe well-respected, higher-paying profession because they all agreed to now requiring the phD. If nurses could all agree to make the BSN the minimal required entry level, this may help advance our profession as well. BTW, welcome to the board!

    newccurn.....yes, they DID say it...see above.....what you state in your post is worlds apart from what the above post implies....but l do disagree with you somewhat......NO ONE here disputes education and advancing the professional image of nursing, but BSN brings nothing else to bedside nursing and in MANY instances offers little in the way of compensation save for more opportunity to advance away from the bedside.....and this helps the nursing shortage ...HOW?....and then when the cost of education is driven up and up because further education is required to do the same job we do now......not good.... new RN's and mngt RN's with very limited experience and foresight purport this increased entry level because they are clueless as to bedside nursing. When l complete my BSN...l REFUSE to stay at bedside nursing.....it would be sensless to obtain a higher degree and continue at bedside where l will bring no further skills than l already have and with little or no compensation.....and therefore....bye bye to 22+ experience in nursing.......and this helps the nursing shortage....HOW?....if all nurses are BSN and the hospital admin already knows that nurses actually don't require the further education to perform the skills....do you really think the pay will increase?....No.....they are very greedy when it comes to paying nurses....Nurses already have what it takes to demand to be treated like professionals.....their jobs are absolutely indespensable in health care....health care CANNOT survive without nurses.....if we can't take this vital fact and demand better treatment, a few more initials will not do the job....Reminds me of an old Andy Griffith show....Barny is out of town and Jerry VanDyke plays the clumsy no-confidence dufus family friend. Aunt Bea talks Andy into hiring Jerry to do a few odd jobs around the jail while Barny is gone......What Jerry really wants is a uniform and a badge....this would really make him proud...he really wants that badge. Andy says ok to uniform...but NO BADGE!....while Andy is out on errands...Jerry takes the Badge, pins it on the uniform and off he goes........sees a couple of men fighting and tries to break it up. Needless to say they shove him out of the way and continue their fight while Jerry jumps up and down on the side lines yelling...."hey..l've got a badge...stop it..l've got a badge....guys, look, l've got a badge!".....ya know, this is how l see this whole nursing degree situation....yes a badge is good...but if you don't have what it takes to back it up...it is useless...........l just see a whole lot of inexperienced delusional nurses jumping up and down yelling at administration...."hey...l've got a degree!"...don't get me wrong, the degree and further education is great.....but it won't help our cause till we use the power we already have to advance our profession.......cutting arrogent remarks such as the one quoted above will always serve to deter this goal.........LR
  5. by   Tweety
    Originally posted by ocankhe
    Yes expirience is the best teacher. However it is a generally accepted principle that the more education you have the more you appreciate and can do with the expirience you gain.

    I'm going to respectfully disagree with that statement. A degree on the wall IMHO has nothing to do with how one reacts, learns and grows from experience.


    Also, you said "Also one should remember that hospital nursing/ direct patient care nursing is just barely half the employment opportunities for RNs. Many of those non hospital opportunities require the non clinical type courses in ones education background in order to be successful."

    I definately would agree with this statement.
  6. by   Tweety
    Originally posted by gpip
    I will finish my bsn completion program in april. I think it has made me personally a better nurse, Not because of the nursing classes but brcause of some of the others. organic and biochemistry,and micro have helped me understand why I am doing things better and some of the other classes have helped me understand where the patient population is coming from sometimes these have made me better at the bedside. This does not make me better than any one. My wife went straight into a BSN program and functioned very well at the bedside. It is not the degree that makes the nurse. It is the person that makes the nurse as well as the experiance.
    It's a myth that ADN nurses don't understand the "why's". Our pathophysiolgy in our program (I can only speak for the one I went to) explained the "whys" quite well.

    I was in report once and a BSN nurse said, "an ADN knows how to hang an IV with Potassium, but it takes a BSN to know why"....sigh....

    That said, I'm not against making the standard for RN to be a BSN. I'm not flaming BSN's at all mind you. But it's my honest opinion that for bedside (not teaching, or management, or those other things) the ADN program I went was quite sufficient book knowledge.
  7. by   EmeraldNYL
    Originally posted by l.rae
    newccurn.....yes, they DID say it...see above.....what you state in your post is worlds apart from what the above post implies....but l do disagree with you somewhat......NO ONE here disputes education and advancing the professional image of nursing, but BSN brings nothing else to bedside nursing and in MANY instances offers little in the way of compensation save for more opportunity to advance away from the bedside.....and this helps the nursing shortage ...HOW?....and then when the cost of education is driven up and up because further education is required to do the same job we do now......not good.... new RN's and mngt RN's with very limited experience and foresight purport this increased entry level because they are clueless as to bedside nursing. When l complete my BSN...l REFUSE to stay at bedside nursing.....it would be sensless to obtain a higher degree and continue at bedside where l will bring no further skills than l already have and with little or no compensation.....and therefore....bye bye to 22+ experience in nursing.......and this helps the nursing shortage....HOW?....if all nurses are BSN and the hospital admin already knows that nurses actually don't require the further education to perform the skills....do you really think the pay will increase?....No.....they are very greedy when it comes to paying nurses....Nurses already have what it takes to demand to be treated like professionals.....their jobs are absolutely indespensable in health care....health care CANNOT survive without nurses.....if we can't take this vital fact and demand better treatment, a few more initials will not do the job....Reminds me of an old Andy Griffith show....Barny is out of town and Jerry VanDyke plays the clumsy no-confidence dufus family friend. Aunt Bea talks Andy into hiring Jerry to do a few odd jobs around the jail while Barny is gone......What Jerry really wants is a uniform and a badge....this would really make him proud...he really wants that badge. Andy says ok to uniform...but NO BADGE!....while Andy is out on errands...Jerry takes the Badge, pins it on the uniform and off he goes........sees a couple of men fighting and tries to break it up. Needless to say they shove him out of the way and continue their fight while Jerry jumps up and down on the side lines yelling...."hey..l've got a badge...stop it..l've got a badge....guys, look, l've got a badge!".....ya know, this is how l see this whole nursing degree situation....yes a badge is good...but if you don't have what it takes to back it up...it is useless...........l just see a whole lot of inexperienced delusional nurses jumping up and down yelling at administration...."hey...l've got a degree!"...don't get me wrong, the degree and further education is great.....but it won't help our cause till we use the power we already have to advance our profession.......cutting arrogent remarks such as the one quoted above will always serve to deter this goal.........LR
    L.rae, when did I ever say that experience WASN'T important or that ADN nurses weren't "good nurses"?? Please don't put words into my mouth. All I said was that I find the additional courses in a BSN program to be beneficial, and I feel that additional education warrants additional financial compensation. If anyone was acting rude or condescending, it was you and fab4fan slinging insults. If you had stated your argument in a less aggressive manner, perhaps I would have been more inclined to listen to what you had to say. Yes, I realize the NCLEX is the same. Yes, I realize that only 10% of what you need to know you learn in school. But I can't help but look at other professions and see how increasing educational requirements has worked for them. Experience is of course important; but I thoroughly disagree with those who say that a degree on the wall is meaningless. But, we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds on this matter.
  8. by   Ortho_RN
    I know several of my friends who are BSN students, who are planning on going straight to management type positions.... And do as lil bedside nursing as possible.... That is crap... They shouldn't even be allowed in any type of management positions that fresh out of school.... I am going to get my BSN, but only for when I get tired of bedside nursing 15-20years down the road I will be able to do managament type stuff...

    And I am sorry Emerald.. Those liberal crap classes that you take for any major are crap... Who the heck needs art history or music history to make them a "better, well rounded person" NOONE.... Foreign language is about the ONLY one worth anything, and you are not required to take a Foreign language, that is your choice..

    If you can tell me how English Literature is going to help me be a better nurse, I am all ears, how bout US history, how bout American Gov't.... Nah, those won't help me be a nurse... or a better person for that matter.... I have taken all those classes plus some.. and all they did was help boost a GPA...

    Good Luck on your Education Emerald....
  9. by   Q.
    Originally posted by Stargazer
    Considering I've already made it clear in this thread that I am in management, should I be taking this slam personally?

    I don't have an MSN yet, and I don't "do" the CEO, 'cause, first of all, I don't need to, and secondly--EWWW. Trust me. Just...ew.
    Thank you Stargazer.

    These petty digs at nurse executives or advanced degree nurses really are no different than me stating that ADNs are inferior. Knock it off! 'Cause I take crap like this personally.
  10. by   purplemania
    Our facility pays $1.10/hr more for BSN. They also pay tuition so Iafter my ADN I pursued BSN. I too learned more than expected.
  11. by   CraigB-RN
    I've been listining to this same argument for going on 25 years now. So far the only thing I agree with is that the ADN programs are no longer real 2 year programs. When I talk to the high school students here who are thinking of nursing I tell them to just look at the BSN programs. THey can get their BSN for in some cases just 1 semester longer than they can get an ADN. With the BSN they are set to whatever career path they choose. It has nothing to do with the skills or knowledge. I've seen BSN students chanting C=RN, and I"ve seen ADN students spending hours on care plans.

    As a Director of Nursing I don't look at how the nurse got his or her education. I don't descriminate between any of the entry methods. I try to look at the individual. No matter which type of program they graduate from, I'm going to put them through a 6 month orientation.

    I fear that by focusing on the educational component of nursing we're short changing ourselves. The only people who are looking at the letters after our name are us.
  12. by   Ortho_RN
    Craig.. Just curious.. How are ADN programs no longer REAL 2 year programs??
  13. by   Q.
    Nurs2b-
    Meaning that obtaining an ADN most commonly takes 3, rather than 2 years to complete. In that time you are in some cases 1 semester away from a Bachelor's degree.

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