Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 5

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   mattsmom81
    I agree that the tearing down should cease. But...have ya'll noticed who always starts beating the drum of "BSN is best"?

    Four year colleges sure drill it in their brains well, don't they?? <sigh>

    Now, those of us who have been in this field for many years can just laugh and shake our heads at the elitist BS...as we know what's what.....
  2. by   EmeraldNYL
    Fab4fan and Mishl, I certainly don't think I have an elitist attitude, but I do think my opinion certainly has merit. Rather than just verbally insulting me and saying "Boo hiss", why don't you construct a reasonable, sound argument to the contrary? I'm not interested in a flame war here; I'm interested in sharing opinions and having a mature, educated debate with other nurses about issues, such as education, that affect us. I'm not interested in tearing anyone down or saying that I'm better than anyone else... however, I DO believe that a more uniform educational standard would help to advance our profession, both in salary and respect. I believe that education is a very powerful thing and that as nurses, we can use our education to our advantage to lobby for greater professional status. Just my HUMBLE opinion.
  3. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    Fab4fan and Mishl, I certainly don't think I have an elitist attitude, but I do think my opinion certainly has merit. Rather than just verbally insulting me and saying "Boo hiss", why don't you construct a reasonable, sound argument to the contrary? I'm not interested in a flame war here; I'm interested in sharing opinions and having a mature, educated debate with other nurses about issues, such as education, that affect us. I'm not interested in tearing anyone down or saying that I'm better than anyone else... however, I DO believe that a more uniform educational standard would help to advance our profession, both in salary and respect. I believe that education is a very powerful thing and that as nurses, we can use our education to our advantage to lobby for greater professional status. Just my HUMBLE opinion.
    "I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills."
    And you expect us to ignore this comment??? Yes, a more uniform educational program is desperately needed in nursing, as I have stated many times on this board. However, you cannot assume that more education = more skills. Have you worked with BSN prepared nurses right out of school? There is a place in nursing for all degrees, not just the advanced degree. And what does the PhD have to do with us? Is that what you want??? I am not in nursing for professional status...and if you are...I am sorry. You don't automatically get respect from going to school and earning degrees. At least not from me. I don't believe I ever used the word elitest, either. Although that seems to be the required course in most BSN programs nowadays.
  4. by   luvrn
    OK speaking as a BSN, I felt as I graduated that I wasn't prepared to work with patients. We might have more theory, but our clinicals were about 20 hours a week our senior year. The majority of us on evaluating the BSN program didn't feel we had enough hands on and wasn't prepared. We were told that they weren't getting us ready to be floor nurses, rather to be management. Now, how many nurses go right from college to manangement??? At my hospital BSN nurses were passed over for management positions....so....having the BSN doesn't always guarantee you management positions.....As someone said before a NURSE IS A NURSE IS A NURSE......in my humble opinion....
    BSN=Bull S**T Nurse....:}
  5. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    Fab4fan and Mishl, I certainly don't think I have an elitist attitude, but I do think my opinion certainly has merit. ..... why don't you construct a reasonable, sound argument to the contrary?
    You have been given MANY reasonable sound arguments....trust my 22 yr experience, they are right......l won't reiterate......check my original post...........LR
  6. by   fab4fan
    Emerald, you are just begging for every ounce of Irish temper I have, but I will try to give you a restrained, reasonable answer.

    There is no doubt that BSN programs are lacking when compared to diploma/ADN programs when it somes to clinical. What good is it to say, "I understand the theory of giving insulin, but I've never done it"...fat help to the diabetic pt. (and yes, this is a true life example).

    When you beat that drum of "BSN is best", it is like you are implying that there is nothing to be learned from nurses who have other educational backgrounds. Heck, I've learned things from our ED aide, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

    All I can say is, those of us who have actually been nurses for years have seen how little difference there is when it comes to hands on nursing and BSN vs diploma/ADN. You do not have the benefit of that experience yet. And yes, I do think your replies come off a bit...I'm going to restrain myself again, arrogant. And that's what bothers me; someone who has zippo experience in something should not be pontificating on how the world should be.

    I really feel sorry for your future co-workers if you truly believe them to be so inferior to you. You will find that no one is going to ask you what your GPA is once you start working, and I have yet to see a pt say to his roommate, "Oh, my nurse has a BSN...well my nurse is better than yours, nonny nonny boo boo."

    There's no differentiation in NCLEX, BTW. And with nurses in such shortage, do you really want to start demoting/demoralizing those of us who are going to have to help you become a skilled nurse?
    Last edit by fab4fan on Feb 9, '03
  7. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by fab4fan
    Emerald, you are just begging for every ounce of Irish temper I have, but I will try to give you a restrained, reasonable answer.

    There is no doubt that BSN programs are lacking when compared to diploma/ADN programs when it somes to clinical. What good is it to say, "I understand the theory of giving insulin, but I've never done it"...fat help to the diabetic pt. (and yes, this is a true life example).

    When you beat that drum of "BSN is best", it is like you are implying that there is nothing to be learned from nurses who have other educational backgrounds. Heck, I've learned things from our ED aide, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

    All I can say is, those of us who have actually been nurses for years have seen how little difference there is when it comes to hands on nursing and BSN vs diploma/ADN. You do not have the benefit of that experience yet. And yes, I do think your replies come off a bit...I'm going to restrain myself again, arrogant. And that's what bothers me; someone who has zippo experience in something should not be pontificating on how the world should be.

    I really feel sorry for your future co-workers if you truly believe them to be so inferior to you. You will find that no one is going to ask you what your GPA is once you start working, and I have yet to see a pt say to his roommate, "Oh, my nurse has a BSN...well my nurse is better than yours, noony noony boo boo."

    There's no differentiation in NCLEX, BTW. And with nurses in such shortage, do you really want to start demoting/demoralizing those of us who are going to have to help you become a skilled nurse?


    YOU MEAN SHE"S NOT EVEN A NURSE YET!!!!????.....oh puleeeezz!
  8. by   fab4fan
    No, her eruite commentaries are based on her experiences as a STUDENT NURSE!!!!! Like I said, no experience to give her the background to speak with such authority.

    Leah, I guess you and I will just have to ride off in the sunset, now...this town ain't big enough (oh, wait, I'm afraid of horses...we'll have to drive off into the sunset).
  9. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by fab4fan
    No, her eruite commentaries are based on her experiences as a STUDENT NURSE!!!!! Like I said, no experience to give her the background to speak with such authority.

    Leah, I guess you and I will just have to ride off in the sunset, now...this town ain't big enough (oh, wait, I'm afraid of horses...we'll have to drive off into the sunset).

    Beam me up fab4......yipppekiiyiiyeah!...<blowing the smoke from the barrel of my .45>
    Last edit by l.rae on Feb 9, '03
  10. by   EmeraldNYL
    Like I said, I would like to have a reasonable, mature debate without throwing insults back and forth. But since l.rae and fab4fan are obviously incapable of discussing this issue in a mature and reasonable matter without resorting to childish insults, I will cease to participate in this conversation (if you can call it that). I'm sorry you feel the need to insult everyone who has a differing opinion from you. If anyone is interested in discussing this issue in a polite and respectful manner, please let me know.
  11. by   fab4fan
    Emerald, you fired this first shot in this war when you said that BSN's were more skilled...that is patently untrue. If you were in the position of Leah or me, having worked hard to get specialty certs. and develop skills in multiple areas of nursing, maybe you would understand how patronizing your comments are...particularly coming from someone young enough to be my daughter.

    Truth be told, I do think a BSN is a good thing to have; I've been working on mine for several years. But there's a whale of a lot of learning that can happen outside of a classroom and I am sorry that you fail to see that.

    If your arguement that the profession would gain status if BSN was the minimum entry level, then this argument would have ended 40 years ago. Since it hasn't, can you see that there might just be some benefit to having diploma/ADN/LPN? Holy Moses, we are in a major nursing crisis...do you really want to clear the decks and have only BSN's working? We don't have enough nurses as it is.

    I hope that time and experience will temper your attitude a bit...if that doesn't happen, God help you.
  12. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    Like I said, I would like to have a reasonable, mature debate without throwing insults back and forth. But since l.rae and fab4fan are obviously incapable of discussing this issue in a mature and reasonable matter without resorting to childish insults, I will cease to participate in this conversation (if you can call it that). I'm sorry you feel the need to insult everyone who has a differing opinion from you. If anyone is interested in discussing this issue in a polite and respectful manner, please let me know.

    Maybe after you appologise to all the lowely ADN's and LPN's and Diploma RN's....THAT would be polite and respectful....the ball's in YOUR court!...........LR
  13. by   Sally_ICURN
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    ...the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills.
    True skill only comes with experience in this profession. School can show you how and lay the foundation for becoming a skillful nurse, but until you can apply what you've learned, and learn from your mistakes, and then teach what you have learned over and over and over and over again...successfully, then and only then, does one possess the skills of nursing.

    I think there's a huge difference between nursing skills, which is "doing things" and the process that a nurse goes through to determine "what needs to be done." One cannot possibly do the first without having a firm grasp on the later.

    Nursing school is to train us to think using nursing's own unique scientific method (nursing process) and each and every nursing program in the country, be it ADN, ASN, BSN has to meet the requirement to teach the nursing process to be accredited by the NLN - the professional association for nurse educators. The extras that are taught in a BSN program are nice but are also unnecessary UNLESS one plans to go into management, OR nursing decides to require a more uniform education among it's members.

    One degree does not make a better nurse than the other.

    ~Sally

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