Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 10

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by Mel D
    I agree that a BSN should eventually be the minimum educational requirement for an RN. And I think that, ideally, this route would offer both the purported superiority of hands-on experience that a current associate's degree offers, and the extra theory and leadership classes offered by BSN programs.

    As nurses we have people's lives in our hands. The responsibility is by no means small. And while I agree that experience is the best teacher there is, and patients may not care how many degrees their nurse has, the fact is that nursing has traditionally been a woman's job, and people therefore think that 'anyone can do it', or 'it doesn't take much to become a nurse'. ALL of us here know this, whether we're LPNs, RNs, BSN, whatever. Our education should reflect the amount of responsibility we bear. And I also agree with another poster (sorry, can't remember who) that said raising the bar may attract more men to the field.

    Yes, I am a student, not a nurse yet, so of course I don't know nearly as much as you all that are already practicing. My intent is to start a BSN program this year, and I may eventually go on to become an NP for acute care. --NOT management. Many people going for their BSNs and beyond still want to work at the bedside, believe me.
    Mel, good thoughts.....however, why would one stay at the bedside with no further compensation, not just money, but we also work under many other adverse conditions that l do not believe will dissapear with further education.....and NP's are not bedside nurses even though they do practice clinically......but ADN's and BSN deliver the same bedside care.....l guess l am just feeling that nurses will be further taken advantage of by saying, now you have to have more education....work under the same conditions for the same pay...if l completed my BSN today, l would not get a raise tomorrow unless l LEAVE bedside nursing where there is the most critical shortage....l do think it is a good step toward improving the profession, but will have little effect without taking other major steps to improve the working conditions....and these conditions need to be improved prior to raising the bar...otherwise, more men and women are going to question....why get a BSN to be a nurse and work under deplorable conditions when l can get a BS in another field and make more money and better working conditions......there is a time to increase educational aspect of nursing, but without other improvements first...it will not work IMO..........LR
  2. by   EmeraldNYL
    Originally posted by l.rae
    Mel, good thoughts.....however, why would one stay at the bedside with no further compensation, not just money, LR
    This is exactly why I made the comment that BSN nurses should get paid more. What is the incentive for a nurse to advance his or her education if they aren't going to be paid more for it? So no, I didn't say that to be arrogant or snide, but just because it makes sense.

    And Mel, I think your post was excellent and you made some very good points. I'm looking forward to doing bedside nursing too, even though at some point I would like to obtain a master's degree.

    SuzyK, the "arrogant" person fab4fan was referring to was me, because in my first post I said something along the lines of "BSN nurses should be paid more because they have more skills". Everyone subsequently jumped on me and proceed to personally attack me for saying that, even though I have tried to explain WHY I said that over and over (for example, I made a comment about how I had to take a foreign language-- I wasn't necessarily referring to technical aspects of bedside nursing skills). I NEVER said that I was better than anyone for having a BSN or that ADNs aren't good nurses.

    Apparently I shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on this subject because I'm still a student.
  3. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by Mel D
    I agree that a BSN should eventually be the minimum educational requirement for an RN. And I think that, ideally, this route would offer both the purported superiority of hands-on experience that a current associate's degree offers, and the extra theory and leadership classes offered by BSN programs.

    Our education should reflect the amount of responsibility we bear. And I also agree with another poster (sorry, can't remember who) that said raising the bar may attract more men to the field.

    OK, why? Seems like these are the comments that keep the ongoing fight ongoing. Raising the bar will attract more men???? PUHLEEZ!
  4. by   nursecheryl
    The more education a nurse has the better off she will be. As for experience we all end up getting it on the floor. As for prereq's and other classes besides the nursing classes I received as an ADN I had to have chemistry, cell biology, microbiology, Anatomy and PHysiology(3 total classes plus the corresponding labs) , 1 Algebra, Psychiatry, adult/child and abnormal. 4 total classes. Sociology. Speech, 3 phys ed classes, 2 arts classes besides the nursing arts. 3 English classes. I realize someone who gets their BSN has more than this, but please stop acting like we in ADN programs and Diploma programs do not get everything we need to be very good at what we do. Not only did we have to prove ourselves with the above mentioned classes but when we worked clinicals we had to do care maps, show down to cell level all disease processes of this patient and cell level for all meds. We had one night to prepare this map and care plan. We went to the floor at 2pm and by next morning 7am were expected to be ready with care plans/care maps in hand in perfect order. We also had to answer questions by our instructors about medications, procedures, etc... down to cell level about our particular pateints we were to have that day. I'm not sure what happens in diploma programs but I'm sure it isn't too much different. I know that where I live when you graduate from a diploma program you end up with an ADN so I'm not sure why they still call it this, but that is still what they call it. I'm a case manager for a home care agency and wouldn't do it if I didn't feel qualified. Not to mention, the place i work for wouldn't allow me to do it.
  5. by   OzNurse69
    I know the system is a little different over here, but I though about upgrading to my degree -- looked into curriculums, etc., and could not find one course that only included post-grad subjects -- for every single one I would have had to attend classes like sociology etc. with first year students.

    No offence to any first year students, but what is the point of paying for tuition for a course like this?? Other than the fact that I would be entitled to put "BN" after my name, of what use would it be??

    Especially since on further enquiry, I would be eligible for special entry into a grad dip or masters program based on my experience, even without my degree.

    Just as an aside, I had a patient say to me the other day, "You really are good at what you do, aren't you? The standard of nursing has really improved since you nurses all started going to university. You have so many more skills than you used to!" She got dreadfully embarrased when I pointed out to her that I and quite a few others on the ward "only" had hospital certificates, & the nurse she was complaining about the week before actually had her masters!!! She was a cow, so it gave me great delight to set her straight!
  6. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by nursecheryl
    The more education a nurse has the better off she will be. As for experience we all end up getting it on the floor. As for prereq's and other classes besides the nursing classes I received as an ADN I had to have chemistry, cell biology, microbiology, Anatomy and PHysiology(3 total classes plus the corresponding labs) , 1 Algebra, Psychiatry, adult/child and abnormal. 4 total classes. Sociology. Speech, 3 phys ed classes, 2 arts classes besides the nursing arts. 3 English classes. I realize someone who gets their BSN has more than this, but please stop acting like we in ADN programs and Diploma programs do not get everything we need to be very good at what we do. Not only did we have to prove ourselves with the above mentioned classes but when we worked clinicals we had to do care maps, show down to cell level all disease processes of this patient and cell level for all meds. We had one night to prepare this map and care plan. We went to the floor at 2pm and by next morning 7am were expected to be ready with care plans/care maps in hand in perfect order. We also had to answer questions by our instructors about medications, procedures, etc... down to cell level about our particular pateints we were to have that day. I'm not sure what happens in diploma programs but I'm sure it isn't too much different. I know that where I live when you graduate from a diploma program you end up with an ADN so I'm not sure why they still call it this, but that is still what they call it. I'm a case manager for a home care agency and wouldn't do it if I didn't feel qualified. Not to mention, the place i work for wouldn't allow me to do it.

    nuff said...
  7. by   fab4fan
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    [B]

    SuzyK, the "arrogant" person fab4fan was referring to was me, because in my first post I said something along the lines of "BSN nurses should be paid more because they have more skills". Everyone subsequently jumped on me and proceed to personally attack me for saying that, even though I have tried to explain WHY I said that over and over (for example, I made a comment about how I had to take a foreign language-- I wasn't necessarily referring to technical aspects of bedside nursing skills). I NEVER said that I was better than anyone for having a BSN or that ADNs aren't good nurse.

    Emerald: Please do not presume to read my mind...you didn't appreciate some of the things I said to you, and I don't appreciate this. BTW, I'm a diploma nurse, not an ADN, just to clarify...we still exist.

    Cease fire.
  8. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    in my first post I said something along the lines of "BSN nurses should be paid more because they have more skills".
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    . I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills.

  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    the more things change, the more they remain the same. It never ends......Like someone else said, let's unite and quit squabbling over education level entry requirements. I agree also that the subject of who is educated where and how NEVER comes up either place I work and we don't ask. We don't care. I say with the state of nursing today, We have bigger fish to fry, friends.
  10. by   Q.
    Ah Nikki,
    Birth by fire, I see.

    You know, my very first post to Allnurses was along the lines of questioning why someone would want to be an LPN instead of an RN. In my neck of the woods, I saw LPNs being eliminated and "RNs only" for critical care, L&D, etc. Needless to say, I became pretty popular pretty quick:
    Susy's Birth by Fire

    'Twas a nasty thread, but towards the end, we all realized that I didn't mean anything nasty and mostly people had baggage no doubt from prior discussions and/or put-downs from ignorant people.

    My point? Well, I knew what you meant when you said BSNs have better skills. You didn't mean it literally, as that kind of language that was miscontrued is probably evident in the thread above that I posted.

    And yes, you are entitled to an opinion as a student. You are the future of nursing. I welcome your ideas.
    So let's eveyone take a breath here and re-read what Stargazer posted and I repeated: experience combined with formal education is really the best teacher. Everyone agrees with that.
  11. by   Lausana
    Susy: Allnurses Phoenix
  12. by   bossynurse
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    [B]I agree, gpip--this is an excellent point. This is what I meant when I stated that BSN prepared nurses have more "skills". I did not just mean technical skills or ability. And lets not forget that nursing is a big wide world, and encompasses so much more than just bedside nursing. I was referring to the bigger picture, including administration, case management, etc... It upsets me when I hear people say that liberal arts classes or prereqs are "junk" or pointless. Perhaps these classes won't help you to drop an NG tube better or insert an IV, but they will make you a more well-rounded person. As an example, I had to take a foreign language-- someday I may get to use my language skills at the bedside if I have a patient that speaks a different language.

    Um emerald, I think most of us took a foreign language in high school. I have my ADN and I still had to take microbiology, anatomy and physiology, sociology, psych, child and adole. development, chemistry, 2 semesters of English, humanities, algebra etc etc etc. Should the new BSN grads that I precept get paid more than me - I think not!
  13. by   Stargazer
    Thank goodness Susy learned from that experience to mellow out and avoid all that pesky controversy.

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