Can Someone Be a Nurse Without Jean Watson?? - page 22

Ok now, as I delve back INTO nursing philosophy and theories, I come across, again, the theories of Jean Watson that have been hailed as the greatest thing since polyurethane IV bags - The Caring... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    The content of these posts clearly demonstrates the lack of understanding and knowledge as to what makes up a professional education and what makes up a technical one. And to lay the blame on the ANA demonstrates a lack of understanding as to what and who is a professional. To be perfectly honest, an AD and diploma graduate are clearly technical nurses. And I feel free to say this, having completed 28 months of a diploma program and having graduated from an associate degree program. And, had I had the funds, I would have gone for my BSN rather then the associate. Blame who you wish. You will still never be viewed as a professional by other health care professionals, who education standards are higher then ours. And who have only one entry level.

    Grannynurse
    I am NOT a technical nurse and was not trained as such. My program trained and educated us to be RN's and charge nurses, people who make decisions that go beyond the technical level of functioning.

    AH WHAT IS THE USE?!!!! :angryfire

    My participation in this discussion is finished. I can get nowhere here. Have nice weekend.
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    See, that is the problem. As of this date, we are unable to even agree what a "professional" is.

    I am still wondering what the theorists of pharmacy, OT, PT and others have to say of their "professions".

    I get what they are trying to do (the theorists), but I don't buy into it. It's much like our NANDA nomenclature system----nursing trying desperately to "come into its own". I see the "why's" behind the various theories, but can't apply them in my practice as an RN, and I doubt I ever will.

    Deb I agree with you.

    I 100% support the educators in their endeavors to separte nursing from medicine and they've done an excellent job in establishing nursing as a separate body of knowledge. Today we take for it granted, but in the old days we were trained by doctors, supervised by doctors, etc. I'm just not supportive of the idea that do so, they needed to get so hung up on the definition of "professional".

    There really is no disagreement on what a profession is in the ivory towers. But you and I aren't buying into it, because they say you and I aren't professional nurses. (Not saying were unprofessional, but by the ivory tower definition, ADN nurses fall under a different category than "professional nurse". Getting the lay nurse to buy into that idea isn't happening.).

    I think the social work profession has the same problem with only MSW's thinking themselves as true professionals. When I got dragged into the interview by JACHO, she was asking me questions and reading the notes in the chart..........."GASP! Your social worker on this unit ONLY has a bachelor degree! You don't have an MSW?????".

    In Pysch. you're only a professional with a PhD.

    Other "professions" are just as catty as us Deb.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jul 16, '05
  3. by   Tweety
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    You will still never be viewed as a professional by other health care professionals, who education standards are higher then ours. And who have only one entry level.

    Grannynurse

    You know, I honestly don't care.

    I have no problem being a technical nurse and not being thought of as a profession.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jul 16, '05
  4. by   traumahawk99
    i think that theory is theory, and practice is practice. what is caring? does it necessarily mean emotional involvement with the patient?

    give me someone who is technically competent and behaves appropriately. i don't need to see what is "in their heart". in the first place, that's no one's business. the profession doesn't need the "caring police".

    who is to say who cares and who doesn't? that's control freak stuff. as long as someone does their job with technical competence and reasonable politeness, then that's the end of it. assuming that someone is in the position to judge an otherwise competent nurse for not having "nursing in their heart" is the height of pomposity.

    in the real world, i'd tell jean to jump in the lake, though i'd point out that in her case, a mudpuddle would do just fine.
  5. by   UM Review RN
    Sorry, double post.

    Also sorry for getting sucked into yet another useless BSN vs ADN debate, in the middle of a perfectly good thread, but that comment kinda put even my nose outta joint with its ignorance.
    Last edit by UM Review RN on Jul 16, '05
  6. by   UM Review RN
    The content of these posts clearly demonstrates the lack of understanding and knowledge as to what makes up a professional education and what makes up a technical one.
    Excuse me. Whatever world you live in, you need to know that the RN is the professional nurse level, the LPN is technical.

    Personally, I believe ADNs may in fact be a tad smarter than BSNs, however, having passed the same NCLEX with a bit less education. But that's just my opinion, as the BSN-for-entry-to-nursing opinion as a route to "respect" is yours.
  7. by   grannynurse FNP student
    Quote from traumahawk99
    i think that theory is theory, and practice is practice. what is caring? does it necessarily mean emotional involvement with the patient?

    give me someone who is technically competent and behaves appropriately. i don't need to see what is "in their heart". in the first place, that's no one's business. the profession doesn't need the "caring police".

    who is to say who cares and who doesn't? that's control freak stuff. as long as someone does their job with technical competence and reasonable politeness, then that's the end of it. assuming that someone is in the position to judge an otherwise competent nurse for not having "nursing in their heart" is the height of pomposity.

    in the real world, i'd tell jean to jump in the lake, though i'd point out that in her case, a mudpuddle would do just fine.
    Ever review the stats reguarding which physician is sued and which is not??? No surprise, it is the physician who is viewed as non-caring but technically compendent who is more likely to be sued, then an incompedent, caring one. And to be honest, I would prefer to have the CARING POLICE around, then the technical police, any day. I might get better care from a techincally compendent nurse but a rather important aspect of that care would be missing. Or perhaps, caring isn't viewed as important. Sad, very sad.

    Grannynurse

    P.S. Please make sure your insurance is current
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    The content of these posts clearly demonstrates the lack of understanding and knowledge as to what makes up a professional education and what makes up a technical one.
    This is the thought process right here that ensures BSN will never be the entry for nurses. Why? Because you need the majority of nurses (ADN/Diploma) on board for such a decision and as long you use insults to justify your case, you will lose.

    Could I be persuaded that BSN is a logical entry point for professional reasons? Possibly but not so long as I am told that it's needed to rid the profession of 'technical' nurses. How dare! Having a stat course, 1 leadership and a 'nursing theory crap' class doesn't make you a professional. Sorry, you lose.

    This is the problem: Is BSN better or is BSN superior? I could be sold on the concept that it is better, but not as long as the only people pushing it do so because they feel it's superior. BS - N.

    This is the problem with ivory tower academics like this Jean Watson person, whom I've never heard of.

    Nursing Diagnosis, Care plans, BSN only debates - all brought to you courtesy of ivory towered academics that long ago lost any true concept of what nursing is about.

    Can you be a nurse without Jean Watson and her ivory towered ilk? The question is: Can you be a nurse in spite of her?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  9. by   grannynurse FNP student
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    This is the thought process right here that ensures BSN will never be the entry for nurses. Why? Because you need the majority of nurses (ADN/Diploma) on board for such a decision and as long you use insults to justify your case, you will lose.

    Could I be persuaded that BSN is a logical entry point for professional reasons? Possibly but not so long as I am told that it's needed to rid the profession of 'technical' nurses. How dare! Having a stat course, 1 leadership and a 'nursing theory crap' class doesn't make you a professional. Sorry, you lose.

    This is the problem: Is BSN better or is BSN superior? I could be sold on the concept that it is better, but not as long as the only people pushing it do so because they feel it's superior. BS - N.

    This is the problem with ivory tower academics like this Jean Watson person, whom I've never heard of.

    Nursing Diagnosis, Care plans, BSN only debates - all brought to you courtesy of ivory towered academics that long ago lost any true concept of what nursing is about.

    Can you be a nurse without Jean Watson and her ivory towered ilk? The question is: Can you be a nurse in spite of her?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Timothy, you are addressing me as if I have never been anything but a BSN graduate. You couldn't not be more incorrect. I spent 27 months in a diploma program, a rather uniquic program, seeing that we spent our first year primarily attending a liberal arts college. I graduated from an associate degree program but went on to get my BSN a short time later. I have practiced actively my nursing career and have also continued my education. Most, if not all of my professors, have also engaged in active nursing care, unlike apparently yours. I have attended USF, Florida and Sage, New York and my professors did not practice in an ivory tower but rather in their coommunities. What is the problem with many of those who oppose one entry level? We are not attempting to diminish your education, we are willing to grandfather you in. What are you all so afraid of?

    The issue is not what type of education is better but what is an acceptable one entry level for nursing. Nursing, like it or not, is diminished by the fact that it is the only health care profession that has three entry levels. No other health care profession allows this, why should we? We are lying to ourselves when we give nod to the this, when no one else does. You may not v=care but there are those of us who do. There are those of us who believe the three entry level of nursing diminishes, rather then adds to our PROFESSIONALISM.

    Have you ever wondered why, with three entry levels, we still are having probelms with attracting students and graduates?? And why no other health care profession suffers the problems we do??

    Grannynurse
  10. by   mercyteapot
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    Timothy, you are addressing me as if I have never been anything but a BSN graduate. You couldn't not be more incorrect. I spent 27 months in a diploma program, a rather uniquic program, seeing that we spent our first year primarily attending a liberal arts college. I graduated from an associate degree program but went on to get my BSN a short time later. I have practiced actively my nursing career and have also continued my education. Most, if not all of my professors, have also engaged in active nursing care, unlike apparently yours. I have attended USF, Florida and Sage, New York and my professors did not practice in an ivory tower but rather in their coommunities. What is the problem with many of those who oppose one entry level? We are not attempting to diminish your education, we are willing to grandfather you in. What are you all so afraid of?

    The issue is not what type of education is better but what is an acceptable one entry level for nursing. Nursing, like it or not, is diminished by the fact that it is the only health care profession that has three entry levels. No other health care profession allows this, why should we? We are lying to ourselves when we give nod to the this, when no one else does. You may not v=care but there are those of us who do. There are those of us who believe the three entry level of nursing diminishes, rather then adds to our PROFESSIONALISM.

    Have you ever wondered why, with three entry levels, we still are having probelms with attracting students and graduates?? And why no other health care profession suffers the problems we do??

    Grannynurse
    And you are addressing all of us as if your opinions and experiences are the be all and end all, and no one else has anything to contribute. This nonsense about "no one" respecting us is what is so insulting. I don't know if the people with whom you work respect you or not. I do know that the people with whom I've worked have respected me. I got my BSN straight away. I also know that the ADNs with whom I've worked have commanded the same level of overall respect as I and other BSNs have. Of course, there are those individuals who feel superior to nurses, for whatever reason. That's their issue, not mine. And I know plenty of people in the other healthcare professions who would scoff at your assertion that none of them suffer the problems that we do.
  11. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    The issue is not what type of education is better but what is an acceptable one entry level for nursing. Nursing, like it or not, is diminished by the fact that it is the only health care profession that has three entry levels.
    If this is your argument, than I would stipulate that ADN is the one acceptable entry level into nursing. It is clearly the minimum level of education that nevertheless produces outstanding product. So,while ADN is the minimum requirement, BSN and Diploma are acceptable because they EXCEED that requirement.

    There, you've settled the issue.

    See, in the first sentence above, you say it's not what's better but what's acceptable, then in the second sentence, you say every nurse not you diminishes nursing.

    I'm not so sure you are 'entitled' to your opinion. It's insulting and prejudiced. It's not about 'grandfathering'. It's not about IF BSN would theoretically be better. It's about WHY you argue this. WHY? because everybody not you diminishes the profession. That's crap. We don't tolerate this attitude/behavior in other sections of society, we shouldn't tolerate it in nursing.

    See, like you, I have a unique perspective from which to view this. I got my ADN and THEN got my bach degree. I had choices, but chose a BA- Biology because BSN had nothing to offer me. I have much more 'research' experience than you received in school as it is a focus of biology education. I have had stat classes required for MY bach degree. I had leadership classes in my military education. And actually, my ADN instructors thought highly of 'nursing theory crap' so I probably got as much of that as you did.

    You can make the argument that your educational path is the only path that doesn't 'diminish' nursing, but you'd be wrong.

    So just keep using the word 'technical' but be advised: it's the 'N' word of nursing and when people get upset at your audacity and rudeness, they have good reason.

    You might be a 'technical' nurse, but I am not. And I would think, having come through the ranks, you'd be more sensitive and eyes open about the fact that the differences you seek to change are 'perceptions' not realities.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  12. by   Tweety
    Quote from grannynurseFNP
    Have you ever wondered why, with three entry levels, we still are having probelms with attracting students and graduates?? And why no other health care profession suffers the problems we do??

    Grannynurse

    Tell that to the tens of thousands of students on waiting lists around the country.

    Tell that to Respiratory who are experiencing a major shortage and problems similar to ours. They have several entry levels too.

    Nursing is not unique. I don't think that during times of nursing shortage, the reason we have trouble attracking people and keeping people is because there are no many "technical" nurses. That is way too simplistic to me. If suddenly we all were BSN's, problems would remain. When I think of the problems in my daily job that would drive me from nursing, the fact that I'm technical and not professional isn't even on the list. Nor is the fact that most of my peers are technical and not professional.

    I'm an ADN nusre, and unlike Timothy, I completely totally respect your opinion and hope you continue to voice it. You are definately not alone in that opinion.

    I guess as a nurse in the trenches, it's not really that important to me right now that we are a profession or not. I certainly don't get angry one bit at those who think I'm not a "professional" and am technical. I wouldn't even mind if the entry level were a BSN and you changed my title to something else other than Registiered Nurse. (of course let the BSNs take another NCLEX commisserate with their higher education).

    I understand that in order to advance this cause, some toes are going to have to be stepped on.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jul 16, '05
  13. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Tweety
    I'm an ADN nusre, and unlike Timothy, I completely totally respect your opinion and hope you continue to voice it. You are definately not alone in that opinion.

    I understand that in order to advance this cause, some toes are going to have to be stepped on.
    I completely disrespect your opinion, it's biased and insulting. And if you plan to step on MY toes to advance your cause, I'll step back.

    I AM THE BEST THAT NURSING HAS TO OFFER. And I will challenge anybody and everybody that says otherwise.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.

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