AS vs BSN (?) - page 2

Hi, Great board........Very glad I found it. I wanted to know what some of the differences are in getting an Associates vs. Bachelors? When it comes to the RN programs. I can only guess... Read More

  1. by   pama
    I am a firm advocate of ADN education. ADN education offers sound nursing curriculua, based on knowledge necessary to function as a Registered Professional Nurse. ADN students out score BSN students on the licensure exam, and have for about the last 15 years.

    There is no difference in pay once you begin work in the hospital. In fact once you are employed most hospitals will pay for you to advance your degree. In West Virginia, WVU has an ADN to MSN program in place. You by-pass the BSN and in three years you receive your MSN. You can receive the MSN with an option in Education, Nurse Practitioner, or Administration.

    In my opinion this would be the way to go. Begin at a good community college in your area. Pass the licensure exam on the first try, as most ADN students do, then let your employer pay for an ADN-MSN program. Good Luck!
  2. by   gpip
    Originally posted by pama
    I am a firm advocate of ADN education. ADN education offers sound nursing curriculua, based on knowledge necessary to function as a Registered Professional Nurse. ADN students out score BSN students on the licensure exam, and have for about the last 15 years.

    There is no difference in pay once you begin work in the hospital. In fact once you are employed most hospitals will pay for you to advance your degree. In West Virginia, WVU has an ADN to MSN program in place. You by-pass the BSN and in three years you receive your MSN. You can receive the MSN with an option in Education, Nurse Practitioner, or Administration.

    In my opinion this would be the way to go. Begin at a good community college in your area. Pass the licensure exam on the first try, as most ADN students do, then let your employer pay for an ADN-MSN program. Good Luck!
    lalalalalalalalalalalalalaal come on Pama come up with something more original same than the same old BS. ADN students outscore BSN students on the NCLEX and how does art appriciation make me a better nurse are the standard answers to this everytime it comes up. the type of program you choose should be based on whatsa best for the individual. I did the ADN then BSN completion thing, while I do not regret my education I wish I would have went the BSN route to begin with. I realize now how much valuable information I missed out on like, microbiology, biochemistry, pharmacology at a much more indepth level. pathophysiology, ethics, and genetics. Just to name a few. while all these things contribute to me being a better bedside nurse. The single biggest thing that i got from all this was that I understand why I am doing things instead of just going through the motions I was programmmed to. Do not get me wrong there are plenty of ADN's and diploma nurses who know why there doing things, but in my experiances they are few and far between. It does all come down to what works best for the individual.
  3. by   gpip
    Sorry I cut myself off. The adn-msn programs do not bypass the BSN education. You get your bsn by taking and passing the required curriculum as part of the process. It is not Oh you have an ADN so you can just skip onpast and you can work on your masters. If it were that easy alot more individuals would be MSN's.
  4. by   pama
    gpip,

    I was trying to give Rob an option, a good option. The reason more people do not go from ADN to MSN is because there are very few of these programs nationwide, I believe there are less than 20 and WVU's program has only been in existance for a couple of years. Yes, you are awarded a BSN half way through the program, however in West Virginia this had more to do with advanced practice than anything else.

    If the ADN to MSN option had been around when I went back to school don't think I would not have done it in a heart beat. Let's see, 2 years for my ADN, 2 years for my BSN and 3 years for my MSN, I believe that makes 7 years, as opposed to 2 years for an ADN and 3 years for an MSN. The last time I had a math course 5 was less than 7!

    ADN students ARE taught why they are doing procedures. It really makes me angry when I hear that ADN students do not have the same education. Everything you listed, with the exception of genetics, is taught in our ADN curriculum.

    For me, everything I learned about being a nurse was taught in my ADN program. My BSN program added to, but in no way taught me more than I had learned in the ADN program. ADN students begin from day one critical thinking, concept mapping, and care planning. This includes indepth pathophysiology, which is taught in nursing and in 8 additional hours of science, pharmacology, which is taught in nursing and in an additional course the last semester, an additional course of microbiology, which is also included in the nursing program, ethics,...get my point.

    Again, I tried to give Rob an option. I never meant for this post to be the ADN vs. BSN. However, I will tell you I am the Dean of the #1 nursing program in West Virginia. Additionally, we are listed in the top 1% regionally and top 1% NATIONWIDE among ALL programs - Diploma, ADN, and BSN. So I believe I do know what I am talking about!

    It's sad your ADN program left a lot to be desired. Don't judge all ADN programs by the very few that have poor standards and curriculum. If you check aroung you will see ADN education is Excellent!
  5. by   fulwood
    Pama, Please ignore GPIP. I for one am certainly not reading your emails as the old and continuous debate on this board of ASN vs. BSN. I am doing the ADN route for the very reasons you mentioned...
  6. by   pama
    Thanks Fulwood.

    For so long WV has been in a recession and it has been difficult for students to come up with the money to get the ADN let alone a BSN or MSN. It is just smart to get the ADN and go to work and let the employer pay for the BSN or MSN.

    The 2+2 programs are a lot more sensitive to working individuals and to those who have families. Traditional BSN programs are just that, traditional. They are used to dealing with a true freshman, 17-18 years old, usually from a family who had some idea of college, or there are other familiy members who have college educations.

    That's fine. However, many individuals out in this world are not as fortunate. And as you see on this post many are returning to nursing after they have been in other careers.

    Time is a motiviating factor in my life and if I can get an education in 2 years less time then great. That is what I will advocate, the ADN to MSN, with the MSN being paid for by the employer.
  7. by   Huganurse
    ..
    Last edit by Huganurse on Jun 30, '02
  8. by   Rob_FL
    Will do.......Thanks.

    I plan to get more info Friday when I am off.

    All these courses etc are very confusing for me since it has been a long time since I was in college. For now the closest I have been to info about the differences between the two colleges (cc and U) is the websites for both. The info they have does nothing for me as I just sit there and stare at the screen....LOL....

    I do have one question for you......I dont know what OCC is. I have been thinking about it saying to myself..........think, dont post what the heck is OCC you will look like a fool but I have no idea what it is

    Again I thank all for the replies, they have helped alot. Thanks for the nice welcome also.

    Rob
  9. by   live4today
    Hi Rob,

    Since the choices of whether to become an ADN or a BSN are still an option, I think the choice of which one to choose is simply a matter of personal preference. Whatever is financially feasible for a person, or whatever fits into a person's life schedule (i.e. kids, spouses, jobs, etc.) then that is what a person should go for.

    I do agree that continued education is an added benefit to one's career choice, but there is no harm in reaching one's goals step by step. Better to reach one's goals the best way one knows how than to discourage someone from reaching their goals altogether just because they feel pressured to do so.
  10. by   Q.
    Originally posted by pama
    ADN students begin from day one critical thinking, concept mapping, and care planning.
    Concept mapping??? They teach you HOW to concept map? That is a Educational Psychology learning concept - among the theorists of David Ausubel as a method for nurses and teachers to use on how to TEACH patients/students.

    Why would a nursing program teach YOU how to study?? They should be teaching YOU how to TEACH OTHERS to use concept maps. Concept mapping is taught to elementary school children. I'm really confused by your statement. Are you sure you are not using some buzz-word you picked up from somewhere? Not to be argumentative....
  11. by   pama
    Suzy K,

    Yes I did mean Concept Mappping. This, along with care planning and the nursing process are taught from day one. Did you come into a nursing program already knowing these concepts?

    Yes, we do need to teach students how to study. Many come to us after being out of school many years. Critical thinking is a skill that can and must be learned in order to be successful in a nursing program.

    Our concept maps are indepth, used not only by the student as a learning tool, but also as a teaching tool for patient education. Perhaps this is not the concpets you were taugh, however, they have been extremely successful in our program, and as I have said before, I will use whatever works to help our students achieve success, even if it is "elementry school concepts" as you stated.

    Besides, we must be doing something right, 100% passage on the NCLEX-RN proves that!
  12. by   Q.
    Pama,

    No, I was not born knowing what concept mapping was; no, I was not familiar with David P. Ausubel and his theories on Cognitive Learning and Higher-Learning concepts such as problem solving, transferring and metacognition. I was taught these in my BSN program, and now I am learning it in a different way in my MSN program. But, in my BSN program, concept mapping and Educational Psychology were taught to us in the framework as using them as teaching tools; they were NOT taught to us as means to an end - passing the boards. We didn't concept map the concept PAIN for example, as a way of helping us study more effectively. Rather than focusing on teaching us study techniques so we pass the boards, they were teaching us concepts to help us be effective teachers for our patients.

    ADN and BSN programs have different areas of focus. Whether or not someone chooses whatever program depends on alot of factors; personally I would recommend the BSN program - as it will only be a matter of time before the US catches up with Canada and Europe. I certainly would NEVER discourage anyone from choosing the BSN route - I am amazed that you yourself would discourage someone from obtaining a four year college degree.

    Learning psychomotor skills and touching on theories in a quick 2 year cookie cutter program - and presenting learning strategies to students rather than actual content material - is only the beginning. Even after having my BSN, and passing the boards, I am learning that there is way more to nursing than even my BSN program touched on. I am learning that nursing is NOT starting an IV.

    Passing the boards is not the end. We need to set our goals higher and we need to finally raise the bar. Please, don't EVER discourage anyone from persuing a Bachelor's degree - for whatever reason.
  13. by   pama
    I have never said that I discouraged students from obtaining a BSN degree. In fact that was not the reason for this post. I am a firm advocate of the RN-BSN and if students want to start in a BSN program that is fine. We need nurses in the United States!

    As far as encouraging education, our college was the first to sign an articulation agreement for an ADN-MSN program in the state. If I did not advocate higher education I would have never signed this agreement. Apparently the university believes our students have the skills, and theoretical backgroud to succeed in a MSN program or they would never have implemented the articulation.

    I do take issue with your reference to ADN programs as being
    "cookie cutter" approach. Students at the ADN level are taught theoretical as well as technical skills. Our graduates are extremely competent. Have you ever been to an ADN program? Have you reviewed the curriculum? Perhaps you should before you make such statements. Sounds to me you are just repeating what you learned at an "Ivory Tower" institution.

    Hospitals in our area prefer our graduates than those from other schools, this includes the BSN programs. Why? Because they have the theoretical background, the critical thinking skills, and the technical knowledge to make them excellent Registered Professional Nurses.

    As far as the US catching up with Canada, I do not believe we will see the BSN as the entry into practice for years. Talk about a nursing shortage, if BSN is the entry then the shortage will be gigantic.

    Again, I was trying to give Rob some choices. Never did I want this to become the old "I am better than you because of the letters behind my name". We all need to work together and realize this world is big enough for all levels of Registered Professional Nursing education, ADN, Diploma and BSN.

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