artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo - page 42

I posted this here becaue I think this subject is something that we as nurses deal with on a regular basis.....Many many people state that they have a big problem with the feeding being stopped... Read More

  1. by   hypnotic_nurse
    Quote from graduatenurse
    is it true that when a person is dying of dehydration, he or she can not feel the hunger or thirst but patient becomes unconscious and die peacefully?
    i helped my best friend when her son was dying, at 21, of a brain stem tumor. he was very athletic before he got sick and he went 10 days without food or water (just a sponge to his lips or mouth every once in awhile) before he died...no decision was made to stop anything (he didn't have a tube) but he was simply no longer hungry.

    he never complained about hunger or thirst and he had enough medication for pain. what little he did say was about the "people in white" he "saw" (in quotes because by then he was blind) in his room...his mom took great comfort from this. the last three to four days he didn't speak or make any other noises.

    don't know if this answers your question, but this was my only experience.
  2. by   begalli
    Quote from caroladybelle
    The proof lies in her behavior. She developed an eating disorder in her late adolescence and early teens. This disorder was severe enough that she neglected her health and damaged her fertility. That neglect led to her current medical state.

    Her desire for control over her body and for being the "ideal" weight is well documented by medical evidence, and has been attested to by family and friends.

    And she developed this distorted ideal and need for control while in the care of her parents.

    As such, it makes her ideas regarding the way that she would want to exist quite apparent.

    It also indicates that her parents are probably not the best caregivers for her.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this entire post.

    I think that it could be safely concluded by Terri's own behavior before she suffered the brain damage, even though her thinking was probably very unhealthly due to her eating disorder, that she would not have wanted any of this.

    Over the past couple of weeks I have also come to my own conclusion and belief that her parents are abusive and perhaps were abusive when she was younger. I feel what they are doing now is purely selfish and a way to control their daughter further. I could NEVER imagine doing what they are doing to their daughter...making her a complete public spectacle and the subject of disgusting politicians who are using her for their own gain.

    I believe that Michael Shaivo is the only person looking out for Terri's own desires. I have a lot of respect for his "girlfriend" and hope that his children who MUST be deeply affected by this are fully supported psychologically.
  3. by   Peachy720
    Quote from begalli
    I agree wholeheartedly with this entire post.

    I think that it could be safely concluded by Terri's own behavior before she suffered the brain damage, even though her thinking was probably very unhealthly due to her eating disorder, that she would not have wanted any of this.

    Over the past couple of weeks I have also come to my own conclusion and belief that her parents are abusive and perhaps were abusive when she was younger. I feel what they are doing now is purely selfish and a way to control their daughter further. I could NEVER imagine doing what they are doing to their daughter...making her a complete public spectacle and the subject of disgusting politicians who are using her for their own gain.

    I believe that Michael Shaivo is the only person looking out for Terri's own desires. I have a lot of respect for his "girlfriend" and hope that his children who MUST be deeply affected by this are fully supported psychologically.
    I can agree with a lot of what Carol is saying.

    But how can someone (Michael Shaivo) who refuses his wife Last Rites, light, a new wheelchair, and refers to her as "is the b*tch dead yet?" be someone who has Terri's best interest at heart? He is nothing more than a buzzard waiting for the signature on the death certificate so that he can re-marry.
  4. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from begalli
    I agree wholeheartedly with this entire post.

    I think that it could be safely concluded by Terri's own behavior before she suffered the brain damage, even though her thinking was probably very unhealthly due to her eating disorder, that she would not have wanted any of this.

    Over the past couple of weeks I have also come to my own conclusion and belief that her parents are abusive and perhaps were abusive when she was younger. I feel what they are doing now is purely selfish and a way to control their daughter further. I could NEVER imagine doing what they are doing to their daughter...making her a complete public spectacle and the subject of disgusting politicians who are using her for their own gain.

    I believe that Michael Shaivo is the only person looking out for Terri's own desires. I have a lot of respect for his "girlfriend" and hope that his children who MUST be deeply affected by this are fully supported psychologically.
    Amazing how people who don't even know these people can have 180 degree differences of opinion. Because I disagree with you 180 degrees.

    I think her parents and siblings are among the most loving people I've ever seen interviewed. But then, I don't know them, never met them. Nor have I met Michael Schiavo.

    Interesting . . .

    steph
  5. by   begalli
    Quote from stevielynn
    Amazing how people who don't even know these people can have 180 degree differences of opinion. Because I disagree with you 180 degrees.
    It is interesting isn't it?

    I firmly believe that actions speak volumes.

    Every single thing that's been quoted as Michael Shaivo saying is heresay.

    There are some websites out there saying that the parents would come into Terri's room earlier on and reposition her in her chair or put her up in her chair against the wishes of the nurses in the facility and move her to a window so that the protestors could "see" her.

    Do I believe that?

    Heck NO!

    Do I believe that Michael Shaivo walked into her room and asked that infamous question, "is the bi*** dead yet?"

    Heck NO!

    What I can conclude is that Terri wanted control of her own life. Evidenced by her eating disorder. Usually with eating disorders there is a history of abuse or some type of control issue. I think that someone so concerned with their own body image would not want all of this attention.

    I feel that what her parents are doing is going against Terri's wishes. Wishes that she probably did discuss with her husband. And it's NOT Michael Shaivo who's throwing Terri to the wolves, it's her parents.
  6. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from Peachy720
    I can agree with a lot of what Carol is saying.

    But how can someone (Michael Shaivo) who refuses his wife Last Rites, light, a new wheelchair, and refers to her as "is the b*tch dead yet?" be someone who has Terri's best interest at heart? He is nothing more than a buzzard waiting for the signature on the death certificate so that he can re-marry.
    There are no "Last rites"...there is the "Anointing of the Sick"....which given her situation has probably already been done many times.

    How many "last rites" does one's Faith require?

    Michael Schaivo could have easily divorced her and remarried at any time. He does not require her death for that.

    And I will believe the b^&*h comment when I hear it from a non-biased source.

    Do I like Schiavo.....no. But do I think that he has Terri's interests most in his heart... yes, more so than her parents. His statements appear more in line with the way Terri lived her life, than her parents' statements do.
  7. by   NYERNURSE
    Quote from caroladybelle

    Do I like Schiavo.....no. But do I think that he has Terri's interests most in his heart... yes, more so than her parents. His statements appear more in line with the way Terri lived her life, than her parents' statements do.

    I feel the same way. Why else would he put himself through all of this? He could have washed his hands of Terri long ago and nobody would've faulted him for that. I admire him for sticking to his guns and seeing to it that Terri's wishes are respected until the end. It has been a long and tortuous road to take.

    I refuse to judge him in a negative light for resuming his life outside the walls of the nursing home. I used to work in a NH caring for brain and spinal cord injured young and middle aged adults. It was not unusual at all for the healthy spouse to have girlfrinds/boyfriends while maintaining their marriage. They would still come and visit their partner, take care of them and take them out for day trips or weekend visits.....but they also went forward with their own lives. They are not evil sinners....they are people doing the best they can in a horrible situation. It's easy for those of us not in these predicaments to sit back and claim superior morals. :stone
    Last edit by NYERNURSE on Mar 25, '05
  8. by   FranEMTnurse
    Quote from NYERNURSE
    I feel the same way. Why else would he put himself through all of this? He could have washed his hands of Terri long ago and nobody would've faulted him for that. I admire him for sticking to his guns and seeing to it that Terri's wishes are respected until the end. It has been a long and tortuous road to take.

    I refuse to judge him in a negative light for resuming his life outside the walls of the nursing home. I used to work in a NH caring for brain and spinal cord injured young and middle aged adults. It was not unusual at all for the healthy spouse to have girlfrinds/boyfriends while maintaining their marriage. They would still come and visit their partner, take care of them and take them out for day trips or weekend visits.....but they also went forward with their own lives. They are not evil sinners....they are people doing the best they can in a horrible situation. It's easy for those of us not in these predicaments to sit back and claim superior morals. :stone
    And may she finally rest in peace. Goes to show how important making a living will, and appointing a power of attorney is. I have done both, and have given copies to my doc, and my daughters. They even had a newscast about the importance of it is, and one website was offering to help anyone who wants a copy of the one where the website is located. They have been flooded with requests this week.
  9. by   camay1221_RN
    What thought have the Schindlers' given to who will care for Terri when they are no longer able to?
  10. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from graduatenurse
    is it true that when a person is dying of dehydration, he or she can not feel the hunger or thirst but patient becomes unconscious and die peacefully?
    as a hospice nurse, my observations are that as the body is shutting down, such basic needs for food and water are greatly diminished. furthermore, when your body is in a dehydrated state, your brain releases endorphins which serve to act as a natural analgesic and has a positive effect on the condition of the patient.

    when their oral mucosa becomes dried/parched and i am giving mouth care, i don't see them sucking on the toothette/swab or wet washclosh....which to me indicates they are not thirsty.

    one time i had this male pt that was put on hospice and he wasn't being fed, still alert. when i gave him mouthcare, he sucked on it as if he couldn't get enough. so i put him in a high fowler's position and gave him a little ice cream. this pt was not ready to stop eating/drinking. i was furious and went to my don with my findings. trays started being served to him; i fed him but a few weeks later i noticed him shutting down. and it was then that he no longer sucked on a toothette or washcloth......

    so to answer your question, i believe it to be no, they do not feel hunger or thirst. and yes, most die very peacefully.

    leslie
  11. by   NRSKarenRN
    concur with earle 100%--same experience seen in my 20 years in homecare:as the body is shutting down, such basic needs for food and water are greatly diminished, desire to eat/drink is not there. oral care sucking good indicator if patient desires to drink.

    my hospice program used a book gone from my sight -- the dying experience by barbara karnes that beautifully explained this issue. http://www.bkbooks.com/booklets.html


    many of us have expressed the need for improved communication regarding end of life wishes and care-- found these links interesting.


    communicating end-of-life wishes
    an rwjf-funded study provides advice on better preparing the people designated to represent our interests at the end of life.


    gentle passages care, inc. is a nonprofit, non-denominational
    service organization founded by judith l. buchman, executive director. judy has supported, assisted and encouraged hundreds of patients and their families during the dying process. one of the many goals is to:
    to assist the family in celebrating the patient's life and to ensure that the patient's journey ends in peace and with dignity. http://www.gentlepassages.org/


    wishing much strength and energy to the staff at the hospice prograrm caring for terri. cannot begin to fathom what working under such scrutiny must be like, but sending then a heartfelt {{{{{{{{{{{{hug.}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


  12. by   danu3
    Quote from earle58

    one time i had this male pt that was put on hospice and he wasn't being fed, still alert. when i gave him mouthcare, he sucked on it as if he couldn't get enough. so i put him in a high fowler's position and gave him a little ice cream. this pt was not ready to stop eating/drinking. i was furious and went to my DON with my findings. trays started being served to him; i fed him but a few weeks later i noticed him shutting down. and it was then that he no longer sucked on a toothette or washcloth......

    so to answer your question, i believe it to be no, they do not feel hunger or thirst. and yes, most die very peacefully.

    leslie
    This reminded me of my mom when she died. The last week or so of her life, she basically stopped eating and drinking on her own. When I tried to feed her or give her a drink, she would take a token bite or a token drink and will refuse to open her mouth after that. About 10 minutes before she died, she was moving around a little bit in bed, didn't say anything, just moved around with some renew energy which I haven't see for a while. So I gave her a little bit of the dinner which she didn't eat a bit earlier and she ate a little bit of it. I gave her some jello which she like and she ate a little bit of it. I gave her some 7up which she like and she drink a little bit of it. She then calmed down and then about 10 minutes later, she passed in front of me to my surprised. It is as if she somehow knows and decided to enjoy a bit of food and a bit of drink before she goes.

    -Dan
  13. by   FranEMTnurse
    Quote from earle58
    as a hospice nurse, my observations are that as the body is shutting down, such basic needs for food and water are greatly diminished. furthermore, when your body is in a dehydrated state, your brain releases endorphins which serve to act as a natural analgesic and has a positive effect on the condition of the patient.

    when their oral mucosa becomes dried/parched and i am giving mouth care, i don't see them sucking on the toothette/swab or wet washclosh....which to me indicates they are not thirsty.

    one time i had this male pt that was put on hospice and he wasn't being fed, still alert. when i gave him mouthcare, he sucked on it as if he couldn't get enough. so i put him in a high fowler's position and gave him a little ice cream. this pt was not ready to stop eating/drinking. i was furious and went to my DON with my findings. trays started being served to him; i fed him but a few weeks later i noticed him shutting down. and it was then that he no longer sucked on a toothette or washcloth......

    so to answer your question, i believe it to be no, they do not feel hunger or thirst. and yes, most die very peacefully.

    leslie
    Excellent post, Leslie. You would know.

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