Addressing the Predicted Nursing Shortage - page 8

allnurses.com staffers were recently fortunate to interview Audrey Wirth, MSN, RN-BC, CVRN-BC adjunct clinical instructor at Aurora University's School of Nursing and Allied Health. She has published... Read More

  1. by   elkpark
    Quote from adnrnstudent
    The is no requirement for BSN to obtain magnet status. It is 1 of the biggest lies in nursing next to Joint Commission caring about having a closed bottle at your workstation.
    It's true that the ANCC doesn't have any requirement for hiring BSN-prepared RNs (other than in management positions), but they do have a requirement that hospitals provide evidence of their support for continuing/higher education of the nursing staff (that's a paraphrase, not a direct quote), by setting a goal for themselves and a plan for how to meet that goal, and, because the IOM report recommending 80% BSN-prepared RNs by 2020 (am I remembering the right year?) has gotten so much publicity, many hospitals have jumped on the IOM bandwagon and set that as their goal. So, while it's not true that the ANCC requires hospitals to hire only, or majority, BSN-prepared RNs, it's kind of a moot point at a lot of hospitals; they are, in fact, hiring only, or mostly, BSN-prepared RNs by their own choice, in order to meet the other Magnet requirement, the one that actually does exist.
  2. by   JKL33
    Quote from adnrnstudent
    The is no requirement for BSN to obtain magnet status. It is 1 of the biggest lies in nursing next to Joint Commission caring about having a closed bottle at your workstation.
    Yep, there are requirements directly related to the BSN issue, with regard to the goal that Magnet hospitals need to have a plan/show progress toward (or maintain a level of) 80% of RNs (any RNs in any roles) having a BSN. So sayeth not just IOM, but ANCC, as of 2017 Fact sheet.

    Check out page 8
  3. by   elkpark
    Quote from JKL33
    Yep, there are requirements directly related to the BSN issue, with regard to the goal that Magnet hospitals need to have a plan/show progress toward (or maintain a level of) 80% of RNs (any RNs in any roles) having a BSN. So sayeth not just IOM, but ANCC, as of 2017 Fact sheet.

    Check out page 8
    You've posted that ANCC FAQ sheet before, on a thread in October of last year, and people have responded to it before (including me, below):

    The FAQs you quote are referring to hospitals that have chosen to set a goal of 80% BSN-prepared nursing staff, and what documentation they need to provide the ANCC once they've met that goal (they need to supply documentation of how they're going to maintain that percentage).

    The Magnet program doesn't require any specific percentage of BSN-prepared RNs. It requires that hospitals set a goal for themselves, a goal of their own choosing, that shows they are committed to the ongoing educational development of their nursing staff. A hospital could just as easily set a goal that 75% of their nurses will be certified in their specialties (the ANCC would probably prefer that, actually, since they make money off certifications, and don't make money off nurses returning to school for BSNs ), or anything else that would show an ongoing commitment to the education/professional development of their nursing staff. Since the IOM report recommending 80% BSN-prepared nursing staff by 2020 got so much attention, lots of hospitals have taken the easy, no-brainer route and made that recommendation their goal. But that is the individual hospital's choice.

    Magnet FAQ's | UC Davis Nursing (Scroll down to "Do I have to have a BSN to work in a Magnet Hospital?" Page is copyrighted 2017, so, current info)

    There's also a nice fact sheet by the AACC, American Association of Commmunity Colleges, about Magnet designation and ADN-prepared nurses (documenting that the Magnet program doesn't mandate any particular proportion of BSN-prepared RNs), but I can't get the link to work. It shows up near the top when I Google "magnet status and bsn requirements."

    ETA: Ooops, I see the link didn't copy as a link.

    Magnet FAQ's | UC Davis Nursing

    Ooooh, this time I was able to get the link to the AACC fact sheet to work.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...BeLhmbTYtRjqNZ
    Last edit by elkpark on Jan 17
  4. by   JKL33
    I'm well aware what I posted before - truth be told, I posted it again because it seemed to apply - and honestly I figured Klone would've rebutted the fact sheet last time around if it didn't apply. I didn't remember seeing your rebuttal last time around; sorry for unwittingly prevailing upon you to post it again.

    That said, I've reviewed your resources and I don't think that answering the question of whether or not one officially has to have a BSN to work in the hospital is relevant. Anything less than a goal of 100% BSN staff means that someone is working with something less than a BSN, clearly. As for the CC, they have posted a sheet of selected items in hopes their nursing school business doesn't crumble amidst the rumors. They also don't mention the outcomes improvements associated with the BSN issue.

    My reason for posting is that regardless, a Magnet-BSN association is certainly not the biggest lie ever known on the face of the earth.

    The Magnet program doesn't require any specific percentage of BSN-prepared RNs. It requires that hospitals set a goal for themselves, a goal of their own choosing, that shows they are committed to the ongoing educational development of their nursing staff. A hospital could just as easily set a goal that 75% of their nurses will be certified in their specialties (the ANCC would probably prefer that, actually, since they make money off certifications, and don't make money off nurses returning to school for BSNs ), or anything else that would show an ongoing commitment to the education/professional development of their nursing staff. Since the IOM report recommending 80% BSN-prepared nursing staff by 2020 got so much attention, lots of hospitals have taken the easy, no-brainer route and made that recommendation their goal. But that is the individual hospital's choice.


    Thank you for the info.

    So they make this easy no-brainer choice while screaming about the nursing shortage?

    It seems quite unlikely that, if they could have any number of goals, they are largely choosing a divisive issue right out of the blue without any suggestion of such other than the IOM's statement, when that very choice limits their applicant pool and, I would think, puts even higher demands/expecations on them for things like tuition reimbursement - at least in the short term while ADN employees make the change. Now you're telling me this is supposedly easier than encouraging certifications and getting people certified? We've been getting specialty certifications for years; my very first job out of the gate had a large percentage of the staff possessing the certification credentials associated with that specialty. Now it's easier for them to piss off half the staff, limit their applicant pools while they're going through nurses like toilet paper, and (for right now at least) spend tons of money on tuition reimbursement?

    I just finished reading a proprietary article Optimizing All Licensed Staff: Magnet® Standards Require an All-BSN/RN Staff in Hospital Settings by 2020: Truth or Myth?
    DOI: 10.1097/NNA.0000000000000191

    This is right from the horse's mouth and as you can see from the title, asks the wrong question in order to cleverly discuss this issue. I actually think word for word the first couple of paragraphs are very particular, in a clever sort of way. It also quickly veers into talking about LPNs.

    The truth-or-myth in the title is not even the question or the common allegation. The allegation is that there is a very strong suggestion of a goal, and it is a strong enough of a suggestion to compel hospitals to make the changes we're seeing.

    My charge is that there's an official answer about this, and also an unofficial answer.

    Fine with me either way. I just hate stuff like this that doesn't really even appear to pass the smell test.
  5. by   Leader25
    I could not have put it any better,this is truly a very honest view and a correct one.
  6. by   Mickey78
    I think it really depends upon where you live as far as there being a nursing shortage. Some states are worse than others but overall, there doesnt seem to be a nursing shortage where I live, only a nursing surplus and schools are popping out nurses left and right and the job pickens are great for HR departments as they definitely have a larger pool of candidates to choose from. Having a higher education, although nice, does not always guarantee a higher salary i.e. some employers are just plain cheap.... they demand all these higher credentials, but turn you down for some nursing positions because they consider you to be "overqualified" (educational wise) and/or figure you will leave if they hire you once you find a job that pays you more based upon your education and experience.
  7. by   Beldar_the_Cenobite
    Quote from OldDude
    I enjoyed the article. I have a few thoughts - since you asked. I think a push toward BSN nursing is "BS." I am an ADN nurse and I didn't think I would finish that program and the reason was the focus on subjects not associated with "nursing." Kinda like someone going to school to become a mechanic and most of the required classes are attached to some social element or being assigned a research paper about whooping crane migration patterns. For this reason the thought of further nursing education makes me nauseous.

    Regardless, ADN nursing provides the biggest bang for the buck; 2 years and you're working versus 4. Another thing we all know;
    I'm going to have to stop reading about there.

    1. I have friends who completed their ADN in 4 years or more.
    2. They're doing their BSN right now.
    3. They regret getting their ADN and wished they had gotten their BSN instead.
    4. If I own a hospital and I have $120,000 to pay two nurses of entry level; 1. I'm not going to pay an ADN and a BSN who can do the same job. If I can pay one and save the money for better equipment, I will. There are certain things that BSNs can do that ADNs cannot. BSN learn a lot of paperwork. ADN don't. 2. You stop learning, you stop earning. I was told that by a psychology teacher.
    5. If I graduate my BSN, it'll have taken me 5 years, with below college level courses that the program does not count which held me back, instead of some of my friends 4 years or more that took them to get their 2 year program.
    6. Scope of practice for a RN is prohibition of prescribing medication unless NP which is not an ADN-NP program. Or such I've ever heard. I thought it was always BSN-NP. What a jump in education level that would be if it was ADN-MSN.
    7. More math means more earning. Some CEO or director positions require use of calculus mathematics in order to run efficiently. The math you know, the more money you can earn.

    I've always been told by my dad "I'm an aircraft mechanic. I got my certification and didn't need a degree. I'm better than a college student so no I don't need to improve my life or my education by going to college and neither do you".

    Ever since that way of thinking I've HATED people who dislike improving their careers.
  8. by   Here.I.Stand
    Quote from Tacomaboy3
    I don't quite understand the dissident when it comes to pursuing a BSN, or..........wasting your time on unnecessary classes? Big whoop. You think lawyers and physicians are better in their fields because they took an Underwater Basketweaving class in undergrad? No. But those are the academic hoops you gotta jump through. EVERY SINGLE person who's earned a bachelor's degree has likely taken a course unrelated to their major or profession of choice. Pull up those big girl panties. Nursing school isn't trade - it's a profession.
    I have my BSN, and my problem wasn't with basketweaving (i.e. general ed requirements.) It was with nursing theory, nursing informatics etc. Most of my general ed classes were interesting. Those offending nursing classes are just time I will never get back.
  9. by   Here.I.Stand
    Quote from Tacomaboy3
    a bachelor's degree in nursing has NEVER been about increasing one's clinical competence, which is why it seems a bridge program is filled with useless classes
    Why not? We hear ad nauseam that BSN nurses yield better pt outcomes, no?

    Quote from LibraSunCNM
    to claim that furthering one's education in nursing by involving loosely-related topics or courses, rather than sticking strictly to hands-on tasks only, is "fluff" or a waste of time, is just stubbornly keeping one's head in the sand, IMO
    I don't mentally bifurcate classes into hands-on tasks vs. fluff... but I would have liked my BSN program to include more advanced patho, pharm, assessment classes. I mean furthering our knowledge there would make us more competent clinicians -- not merely technicians as those who focus on the hands-on skills.

    Instead, in my theory class my instructor brought in these pictures of herself that supposedly showed her aura (it was an airbrushed-looking pastel rainbow loosely outlining her head and neck. I could have brought similar pictures of myself, created in Photoshop, and none would be the wiser.) She also brought her divining rods and showed us how she used them to decide where the qi was most favorable for the labyrinth she was putting in her backyard. One of our required readings was even endorsed by nursing great Deepak Chopra.

    My nursing informatics class could EASILY have been reduced to a lesson. A bit of history, pros/cons, important components to an EHR -- done.
  10. by   CelticGoddess
    Quote from Beldar_the_Cenobite
    I'm going to have to stop reading about there.

    1. I have friends who completed their ADN in 4 years or more.
    2. They're doing their BSN right now.
    3. They regret getting their ADN and wished they had gotten their BSN instead.
    4. If I own a hospital and I have $120,000 to pay two nurses of entry level; 1. I'm not going to pay an ADN and a BSN who can do the same job. If I can pay one and save the money for better equipment, I will. There are certain things that BSNs can do that ADNs cannot. BSN learn a lot of paperwork. ADN don't. 2. You stop learning, you stop earning. I was told that by a psychology teacher.
    5. If I graduate my BSN, it'll have taken me 5 years, with below college level courses that the program does not count which held me back, instead of some of my friends 4 years or more that took them to get their 2 year program.
    6. Scope of practice for a RN is prohibition of prescribing medication unless NP which is not an ADN-NP program. Or such I've ever heard. I thought it was always BSN-NP. What a jump in education level that would be if it was ADN-MSN.
    7. More math means more earning. Some CEO or director positions require use of calculus mathematics in order to run efficiently. The math you know, the more money you can earn.

    I've always been told by my dad "I'm an aircraft mechanic. I got my certification and didn't need a degree. I'm better than a college student so no I don't need to improve my life or my education by going to college and neither do you".

    Ever since that way of thinking I've HATED people who dislike improving their careers.
    where do you get your info? Exactly what can BSN prepared nurses do that ADN prepared nurses can't? Just can't wait to hear this.
  11. by   Oldmahubbard
    I did my BSN 20 years ago. The only classes of real value were Statistics and Patho. Even Patho was largely a rehash of A and P, although I did learn from it, actually enjoyed it.

    Nursing theory needs to be entirely deleted from BSN and MSN programs. There is widespread agreement on this, but who has the power and the cajones to change the curricula?

    Shortage? There is not now, nor has there ever been, a shortage of nurses applying for good nursing positions.

    There always will be a shortage of graveyard shift nurses.
  12. by   ruby_jane
    Quote from Beldar_the_Cenobite
    I'm There are certain things that BSNs can do that ADNs cannot. BSN learn a lot of paperwork. ADN don't.
    Nope, nope nope.

    My husband got his ADN 20 years ago and has worked emergency medicine, cardiac cath, and several other specialties. He bridged to his BSN several years ago because he wanted to get into management and the BSN was a requirement. But there was nothing he could not do as an ADN RN (except manage).

    I got my BSN 10 years ago and there wasn't anything I was "better" at out of the gate. In fact, the ADN program had more clinical hours (and that might have been a reflection of the reality of two decades ago) so if anything he was MORE prepared to do the actual work of nursing than I was. I may have been more prepared to manage...and that and a dollar will buy me a Dr. Pepper. We don't need nurses who know how to manage. We need nurses who know how to be nurses.
  13. by   SpankedInPittsburgh
    Functionally I see no difference for bedside nursing between these credentials. The reason to get a BSN is to manage your career, get raises and more opportunities & that's all. There is no defending the fluff curriculum of nursing education. No defense to all those theory classes. Honestly I think a large part of the BSN push is a money grab by educational institutions and keeping nurse instructors / professors in their comfort zone. It certainly has nothing to do with students or the patients they care for. This couple years of credits should be filled up with challenging, clinically based classes that nurses would be interested in. Something that nurses would need and even more want but that's not what we have or anywhere close to it
    Last edit by SpankedInPittsburgh on Jan 23

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