A Lesson Learned - page 5

Again, there is another thread started- which could be interpreted by some as passive-aggressive remarks about advanced degree nurses, and it could not. I read it and felt slightly insulted, and I... Read More

  1. by   shay
    Here's a question...

    Would everybody be telling the LPN's to 'calm down' and 'be intrinsically proud of their own accomplishments' if people went all over this board and said what lousy, skill-less, snotty, stupid nurses LPN's are?

    Of course not. If someone even INFERS another poster to be saying the above about LPN's, the cavalry immediately comes calling to tell this person how horrible they are for saying these things...and rightly so. But if it's said about a BSN nurse, this is somehow okay.

    Hence my point. Just like all white people are evil, all men are pigs, all cops profile, all gun-owners are rednecks and gangstas, all rich people INHERITED not earned their money, all skinny people are 'genetically that way...have never been fat in their lives,' and all stay at home moms look down on working mothers, and all BSN nurses (according to a LOT of folks on this board) are snotty and skill-less and stupid and worthless SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HOLD A BSN. Saying these things is deemed okay and even p.c. to some extent...you know, 'keeping the evil oppressors in their place.'

    Why is it okay to regularly insult and put down certain groups of people but not others? HERE'S A THOUGHT...IT'S NEVER OKAY.

    This is Susy's point, my point, and a lot of other people's points here. Yes, PLEASE, let's DO all judge the nurse by her work and her individual merits, not by the letters after her name!! That would mean not only not ASSuming all LPN's work long term care and are not qualified to work critical care, BUT BY THE SAME TURN not ASSuming that all BSN's are snotty, rude, have never worked at the bedside, and only want to go into administration and that's why they got a BSN.

    Please. Get off the BSN bashing. There's a lot of it that goes on here on a regular basis, and it's RUDE, UNPROFESSIONAL, UNWARRANTED, AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. If you want threads and quotes, pm me, I'll send 'em to you. Out of respect for the poor tired administrators, though, this is it for me for posting on this thread.

    Thank you.
    Last edit by shay on Mar 31, '02
  2. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by SICU Queen
    I have a question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't give a hoot about a nurse's initials, as long as the effort is there and I have some decent knowledgeable backup in a crisis.

    For those BSNs pursuing a Master's: Exactly how much clinical experience do you feel you should have before you are allowed to become a nursing instructor? My husband is in his third clinical semester of an ADN program. He has been an LPN for 14 years, and spent half of that in the military working in ICU. He is VERY experienced. One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

    While I appreciate and respect her book knowledge, how the hell can she teach a student ANYTHING about bedside nursing? She's NEVER DONE IT.
    I am not getting my Masters, yet, but I would say 5-10 years. Then they should be required to work a few shifts a year as a bedside nurse. I hated getting techers who hadn't done any bedside care in 20 years. They just didn't understand....

    shay,
    Couldn't agree with you more, but what do you mean all skinny people aren't genetically like that? You're putting a bummer on my Easter chocolate pig out plans
  3. by   Q.
    Originally posted by SICU Queen
    I have a question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't give a hoot about a nurse's initials, as long as the effort is there and I have some decent knowledgeable backup in a crisis.

    For those BSNs pursuing a Master's: Exactly how much clinical experience do you feel you should have before you are allowed to become a nursing instructor? My husband is in his third clinical semester of an ADN program. He has been an LPN for 14 years, and spent half of that in the military working in ICU. He is VERY experienced. One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

    While I appreciate and respect her book knowledge, how the hell can she teach a student ANYTHING about bedside nursing? She's NEVER DONE IT.
    Shay, simply put, thank you.

    SICU Queen:
    In regards to your question. So far, certain MSN programs, depending on the track, DO require so many years of experience. For example, the public university here has a WHNP which requires at least 2 years in Women's Health prior to being accepted.

    My particular program, which is a MSN with an Education focus, requires no particular time-frame for clinical experience in order to be admitted. The program is designed for working nurses, so 100% of the students enrolled are already working. I myself have been a Labor and Delivery nurse for 4 years. My MSN will take me 3 years, so total I would have been a clinical nurse for 7 years by time I graduate.

    As far as your question: there are Nurse Educators who teach the community: ie they design and implement educational programs, there are those who work in staff development, and design and coordinate programs for staff. You don't necessarily need bedside experience in order to do these things.
    As far as Nurse Educators who are instructors: there is a difference b/t those who are clinical instructors and those who are professors/lecturers/researchers. As an instructor, yes, I personally believe that you should have bedside experience if you are going to be working in the skills lab at the local nursing school. But typically, those instructors don't apply for those types of positions if they lack in that area. Those nurse educators would be best fit in a lecture setting. Now, my only clinical experience is in obstetrics. I may, as a lecturer, have to teach a Med-Surg lecture. I have never worked Med-Surg and it would certainly help teach better, in my opinion, but my MSN teaches me HOW to teach, which, is a skill that has been lacking with alot of professors/instructors lately. You can have the knowledge, but if you can't deliver it, what's the point? There is none.

    Tim-GNP has had this same experience. Educators who have a MSN and are great clinicians, but haven't been taught how to teach. It can totally ruin a student's experience and even hinder their learning.

    And, to everyone else in regards to this thread: I started the thread because I wanted to tell people that putting down BSNs is not acceptable and will finally not be tolerated on this BB. It's not about convincing you to get a BSN - it's about quitting the insults that have gone unchecked on this BB for as long as I've been here.

    As far as I'm concerned, the message is delivered and the thread can end for all I care.
  4. by   Q.
    Originally posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    ...Happy Easter! I hope everyone had a spiritually reflective & peaceful day...as much as possible for those who had to work or aren't here due to the war. I hope everyone got a chance to spend this joyous day/evening with their love ones & friends for as we all know from September 11th, life is too short. I just wanted to share my thought & wishes with all of my fellow nursing colleagues and new found friends here at All Nurses.com BB; I do think about, respect, & appreciate you all very much.:kiss :chuckle:roll:blushkiss

    Sincerely - Moe
    Happy Easter to you too, Moe.
  5. by   NRSKarenRN
    it's been said that nurses need to be knowledgeable about our past to understand the present and change our future:

    what nurses stand for
    suzanne gordon
    feb 1997
    the atlantic magazine
    http://www.theatlantic.com//issues/9...urse/nurse.htm
    five years later in 2002, this same story has been repeatedly told in various ways in countless articles. people can listen but not really hear you. just this year, we are beginning to be heard as we see california legislating staffing ratios and other states instituting mandatory overtime legislation to change bedside nurses working conditions. wish everyone would hear suzanne gordon's eloquent words too. karen

    significant events in the history of nursing
    http://www4.allencol.edu/~sey0/hist1a.html

    men in american nursing history
    http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6011/

    history of the national league for nursing (nln)
    supporting nursing education for over a century
    http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/info-history.htm


    voices from the past, visions of the future
    a summary of selected benchmarks in the history of the american nurses association
    http://nursingworld.org/centenn/index.htm

    ana's hall of fame
    the ana hall of fame is a lasting tribute to nurses whose dedication and achievements have significantly impacted the nursing profession throughout the years. the achievements of the nominee must have enduring value to nursing beyond the nominee's lifetime.
    http://nursingworld.org/hof/index.htm


    understanding current nursing education in the usa.:
    http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/subjects/nursing.html

    future ideas for nursing education
    nursing history in the curriculum:
    preparing nurses for the 21st century
    http://www.aahn.org/position.html

    nln: a vision of nursing education
    this work was developed in 1993 after listening to the conversations of nln members in council meetings, programs, and committees; reading their literature and their resolutions; hearing their questions and their answers and receiving the comments and suggestions of individual faculty, administrators of nursing services, and students. it is as relevant in 2001 as it was when it was published in 1993.
    http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/vision.htm


    wonderful historical links found at these sites
    including past nursing leaders and nurses in war wwii, vietnam and desert storm:


    dianne brownson's nursing notes--history links:
    http://members.tripod.com/~diannebrownson/history.html

    open directory project :
    http://dmoz.org/health/nursing/history/


    while practicing as an lpn 1977-82, i was fortunate to chose a hospital organization that valued and encouraged nursing education and was a clinical site for diploma, bsn and asn nursing students. after experiencing one main line phila. schools bsn students and some condescending remarks that lpn's were to serve the rn's and that bsn's "new it all" i was put off by their attitude......until a different bsn's program came through and their students were humbled to be learning from an lpn charge nurse on a telemetry unit.

    over the ensuing years i've come to realize it is more an individuals personality that looks down or disfavorable towards another colleague, not the level of education/degree they had. i learned so much about hospital beside nursing from the 2 nursing assistants i was charge nurse over as a new lpn on night shift; the asn rn's on middle shift from ireland, phillipines and thailand taught me disease process and medication management; nursing administration taught me to seek knowledge for learning new skills and theories so i could provide the best pateint care; while bsn college taught me to look at the world of nursing in all its variations and to be open to new ideas for change is forever in the healthcare field. the msn program is teaching me to look at what exactly am i doing, why i do what i do, and is there anything different i can incorporate into my practice while it continues to expose me to the rich tapestry of nursing. when we have teamwork, we can do anything and survive.


    edited spelling.koh
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Apr 1, '02
  6. by   micro
    cry at the innocence lost when I first became a professional nurse.......
    to all those who chose to stay at bedside nursing.........hands down and way more than that.....actually that is where I am at the moment....
    to those of you who go on.....good and great for you.......
    cause what we need is leaders, activists, and just plain thinkers in this field we call nursing.......

    I can bring a cup of coffee.........and glad to.........

    but gee whiz.........it is time to quit being the handmaidens of doc's and public.....

    micro not very fluent in her thoughts tonight.....the above posters have made their their statements very eloquently and I can say it no better......

    think I want to teach...but that is another time and place...

    micro
  7. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    originally posted by nrskarenrn
    it's been said that nurses need to be knowledgeable about our past to understand the present and change our future:

    what nurses stand for
    suzanne gordon
    feb 1997
    the atlantic magazine
    http://www.theatlantic.com//issues/9...urse/nurse.htm
    five years later in 2002, this same story has been repeatedly told in various ways in countless articles. people can listen but not really hear you. just this year, we are beginning to be heard as we see california legislating staffing ratios and other states instituting mandatory overtime legislation to change bedside nurses working conditions. wish everyone would hear suzanne gordon's eloquent words too. karen

    significant events in the history of nursing
    http://www4.allencol.edu/~sey0/hist1a.html

    men in american nursing history
    http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6011/

    history of the national league for nursing (nln)
    supporting nursing education for over a century
    http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/info-history.htm


    voices from the past, visions of the future
    a summary of selected benchmarks in the history of the american nurses association
    http://nursingworld.org/centenn/index.htm

    ana's hall of fame
    the ana hall of fame is a lasting tribute to nurses whose dedication and achievements have significantly impacted the nursing profession throughout the years. the achievements of the nominee must have enduring value to nursing beyond the nominee's lifetime.
    http://nursingworld.org/hof/index.htm


    understanding current nursing education in the usa.:
    http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/subjects/nursing.html

    future ideas for nursing education
    nursing history in the curriculum:
    preparing nurses for the 21st century
    http://www.aahn.org/position.html

    nln: a vision of nursing education
    this work was developed in 1993 after listening to the conversations of nln members in council meetings, programs, and committees; reading their literature and their resolutions; hearing their questions and their answers and receiving the comments and suggestions of individual faculty, administrators of nursing services, and students. it is as relevant in 2001 as it was when it was published in 1993.
    http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/vision.htm


    wonderful historical links found at these sites
    including past nursing leaders including nurses in war wwii, vietnam and desert storm:


    dianne brownson's nursing notes--history links:
    http://members.tripod.com/~diannebrownson/history.html

    open directory project :
    http://dmoz.org/health/nursing/history/


    while practicing as an lpn 1977-82, i was fortunate to chose a hospital organization that valued and encouraged nursing education and was a clinical site for diploma, bsn and asn nursing students. after experiencing one main line phila. schools bsn students and some condescending remarks that lpn's were to serve the rn's and that bsn's "new it all" i was put off by their attitude......until a different bsn's program came through and their students were humbled to be learning from an lpn charge nurse on a telemetry unit.

    over the ensuing years i've come to realize it is more an individuals personality that looks down or disfavorable towards another colleague, not the level of education/degree they had. i learned so much about hospital beside nursing from the 2 nursing assistants i was charge nurse over as a new lpn on night shift; the asn rn's on middle shift from ireland, phillipines and thailand taught me disease process and medication management; nursing administration taught me to seek knowledge for learning new skills and theories so i could provide the best pateint care; while bsn college taught me to look at the world of nursing in all its variations and to be open to new ideas for change is forever in the healthcare field. the msn program is teaching me to look at what exactly am i doing, why i do what i do, and is there anything different i can incorporate into my practice while it continues to expose me to the rich tapestry of nursing. when we have teamwork, we can do anything and survive.
    this is a shiny example of being "well rounded" from continuing education...i salute & applaud your accomplishments. i want to thank you for the above urls for reading...i will be quite busy & will go right to them - moe :kiss
  8. by   Aide
    Susy K,

    I have said some mean and hurtful things to the nurses on this board. I am usually just venting and it is safer to do that here than at work. I understand your frustration . The difference is my fellow nurse aids look up to me to be their advocate. My head nurse has become my biggest cheerleader. They helped me celebrate my graduation and my acceptance into law school. I have to admit it can be challenging to take orders and have no input. I have to really seperate my self from my job. My nurse aide job did teach me a great lesson.. That job enabled me to go to college and to pursue law school. I learned to be an advocate for the poor. I learned a great deal about work place violence and how to handle angry and combative people. I am a very spiritual individual and I have great respect for human life. I am driven by issues involving social justice, equality and fairness. I worked for eleven years as a nurse aid. I guess my lesson was that I learned more than I realized. I too love college and I graduated with a perfect 4.0. This mind you was after being a HS failure. I too sometimes need a little recognition and I will admit it. I plan on leaving my nursing days behind me. I do realize that it is the most important job Iwill ever have. I believe that it is Gods work and those are his people. There is nothing more important than taking care of your fellow humans. No, career in law will top it or ever be more important.
  9. by   nurseleigh
    "I will make a difference in nursing, but it will not be at the bedside, I can almost guarantee you that. I will make my difference from afar, in writings and publications and research; in my ideas and theories, and, with my students. And, I feel that I am just as valuable in that regard as anyone who works at the bedside."

    I just read this and when you mentioned your students i was reminded of a story i once heard that has nothing to do with nursing in particular but i thought i would share anyways.

    A father asks his little girl what she wants to be when she grows up. She replies, "I want to be a teacher." The father ask why not be a doctor?" and the little girl looks up and innocently says, Someone has to teach them how to be doctors. I would gladly give credit to the author of this but i cannot remember where i heard it. But it has always stuck in my head.
  10. by   Agnus
    Be the very best we can be. If that means gaining a degree for Mary, going back to school for Mark, gaining initials for Cindy so she can open a door that she wants to enter, Studying hard and gaining that 4.0 so that Pete has what he need to begin applying it. Getting a C for Julie because she concentrates more on the human aspect of nursing than on the technical, moving into management or teaching because that is where Megan's talents personality and passions are then all of nursing can only benifit.

    We are in a very diverse profession. Perhaps more than many professions, we have a staggering number of roles one can take on.

    Viva la difference! Every single one contributes to the whole. and Benifits us all. I learned some valuable knowledge form a hospic nurse whom I was orienting to critical care. Yet I was supposed to be her teacher! I believe I took away more the experience. Because the field of Nursing is so vast no one acan know or do it all. I don't think anyone will argue that. Consequently we have nurses with diffrent skills backgrounds talents.

    Because itd is so vast we don't understand everyone's role entirely and I thank SuzyK for her very enlightning insights into positions qualifications for Educators.
    Yes, many of us dare to move from one area of nursing to another. In doing so we do at first seem like a rank novice in that new area,(because we are). But this novice brings with her?him skills and knowledge that can be share with us and usually it is ours just for the asking. Often we don't even have to ask. We all know ther is something to be learned everyday.

    I really don't care if you wear your degree on you sleeve or not. If you act like you are better,because I am going to look for and find something that you have that I can learn and benifit from. Or a way that I can use your skills and knowledge to compliment my own inorder to bring my patient better care. It has a synergistic effect but only if at least one of us is able to recognize and take advantage of the benefit of both our contributions.

    I am not the best nurse nor the worst. There will ALWAYS be better and lesser than me. This on NO reflection on me. But I am smart enough to recognize ther is something in it for me and for my patients to welcome this nurse who is diffeently qualified.
  11. by   LauraRN0501
    I don't usually respond to these kind of threads, as I am not usually a confrontational person, but some things mentioned have stirred up some emotions for me.

    I graduated in May of last year with my ADN. School was not fun for me, I had health problems, my son developed asthma and we were so broke that we still haven't recovered from it. And I made A's all the way through. (nursing, NOT a&p or micro!! LOL) Anyway, if the 2 year program had not been available, I would not have been able to become a nurse because I did not have 4 years to spend in school.

    That does not mean I don't value higher education. I intend to get my BSN, am actually looking at starting some pre-reqs next fall. I feel that if someone really is threatened by higher education, that is a self-esteem issue. I am proud of my degree, proud to be a nurse, and I am a damn good nurse in relation to my level of experience.

    I have read posts here, however that make me defensive. When I read posts about there needing to be a BSN entry level for nursing, I feel as though *I* am not valued. I read that because the BSN is not the required entry level, education is not valued by nursing. Does that mean that MY education is not valued? I know that I don't have the liberal arts education BSNs have, I know BSNs recieve more education in community health than I did. And I want to have those things, and I will have those things, I am just working a little more slowly than others.

    I think we all have nurses we look up to and want to emulate. That nurse for me is an LPN. Between her knowledge and patient care, I hope to be half the nurse she is one day. She is truly an exceptional human being and nurse.

    I believe people get angry on this board because they feel that they are undervalued and considered to be less than, and I can understand that.

    Nursing needs everyone right now. We are understaffed, underpaid and undervalued by the general public. Devaluing each other will not further our cause at all. To disparage someone because they have more or less education will only hurt us. I am glad for the CNAs because they do tasks that, while I would love to be able to do, I simply don't have the time because I am swamped with other things. The LPNs in our hospital have their own teams and without them I would have even MORE patients to care for, and the experienced LPNs, and RNs (ADN and BSN alike) are a wealth of knowledge for me. I appreciate the BSN and MSN nurses in management because I have no desire, at this point in my career, to do what they are doing. In fact, I don't think you could pay me enough to do what they do, but their jobs are necessary. And all the others I have not mentioned, CRNAs NPs, CNMs, anyone I have left out, we need them all, because all have different roles.

    I think people just want to feel appreciated and valued and when we don't, we are hurt and sometimes respond by lashing out.

    Suzy, I read your posts, and there are many things we don't agree about, but I do value you and your education. And I thank God there are nurses who want to do L&D, cause I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near it!!! :roll However, having given birth, I sure as hell appreciate a good L&D nurse and all their knowledge and nursing care.

    Laura
  12. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by Agnus

    I really don't care if you wear your degree on you sleeve or not. If you act like you are better,because I am going to look for and find something that you have that I can learn and benifit from. Or a way that I can use your skills and knowledge to compliment my own inorder to bring my patient better care. It has a synergistic effect but only if at least one of us is able to recognize and take advantage of the benefit of both our contributions.
    That is one of the smartest things I have seen written on this board. I say AMEN!!!
  13. by   Agnus
    I feel valued. As a CNA I felt valued, as and LPN I felt valued, as an ADN I feel valued, and as a BSN student I feel valued.

    WHY?

    Because this is a profession that has more roles within it than I can count. Perhaps more than any other profession. I realize I can not do all, nor be all. I cannot move into another area of nursing and know all that is know by those in that area.

    I know that if I take advantage of out collective, knowledge, wisdom, skills, and experience I will grow and my patients will benefit. There will be a synergistic effect.

    Therefore when I meet a nurse who has a need to be right, smarter, etc. I allow them that. I don't challenge an already fragile ego, and already hostile person. But I try to keep my own fragile ego out of the way and listen to them so that I CAN benefit.

    Hostility is a sign of fear. Fear comes from a sense of not having control. A sense of control come from understanding that you have value.

    Let us recognize that an animinal lashed out when they are scared. They are scared because they know that something can happen that they may not be able to stop. An animinal that has control knows their own assets (size, physical strength, experience in a simular situation etc).
    People are no different in this.

    Let's value the difference. If every nurse was exactly like me, and knew what I know, and have my skills then there would be a lot of people who we (as a whole), serve would suffer severely.

    SuzyK, thank you for enlightning us on what it takes to be an educator. I think this demonstrates how we can easily misjudge what a person has to offer by just looking at the surface. You show us that even though it may appear a nurse Doesn't have my background and experience and is therefore unqualified to say teach someone to do my job this is not necessairly true.

    She has assets that are even more extensive than mine with training in how to convey knowledge to a nursing student better than I can working in the trenches. I may know my job and be good at it. That doesn't make me able to teach it in such a way that the vast majority of new studendts can learn it.

    It does not mean I have background in the areas that a professor does that enhance a (possilby) limited clinical experience to allow me to do your job of teaching or managing, or anything else.

    Moe thanks for your great words this holliday.

    I am glad you want to be an LPN and stay one. A CNA who wants to be a lawyer, I am glad you have a MSN or a doctoral degree. Because YOU bring me a gift and my (our) patients. A gift that is unique as your knowledge, tenderness, practicality, skill, wisdom etc. a gift that can only enhance not detract from my own.
    Last edit by Agnus on Apr 1, '02

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